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Originally posted by SloppyJo
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So what? I don't see why everyone is so quick to point this out. Refs call the fouls they see, there isn't a conspiracy against everyone else in favor of Duke. That would be pretty useless if the refs kept a running tally of fouls and only called a foul if both teams were "even". Is it possible that this is because Duke's offense is so agressive? They hammer the ball inside to Williams and drive to the hoop. I mean, yeah, Reddick shoots more treys than anyone, but without an inside presence, such as Williams, he wouldn't get the opportunities he gets. Duke is also one of the best (if not THE best, I don't remember) free-throw shooting teams in division 1, so it would make sense that they are so agressive in attacking the basket. Duke isn't number 1 in the polls because the refs hand every game to them or because anyone's sucking Reddick's dick. Duke is number 1 in the polls because Coach K is a frickin genius and his guys play hard every game. He recruits the players that fit best into his system and he knows exactly when and where to plug them into the game. Lopsided free-throw totals usually means one team was more agressive than another. If anything Temple played like a bunch of pansies. -
Your a fucking moron if you think Duke is an inside team... anybody with half a brain knows that duke is a three point shooting team... and they have been for the last 10 yearsOriginally posted by babyblues
As a team Duke has shot over 530 3PA's and over 1500 FGA... that would mean that for every 3 fga's there is 1 3pa... So let's say they average about 60 FGA's a game, that would mean that they would average about 20 3PA's a game... wow pretty low number :rolleyes:
Out of Duke's 28 games this season, they have been out shot on the free throw line FOUR TIMES... yes only 4 times...
The stat's don't lie... why don't you try using facts with your argument instead of rambling on like a moronComment
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I didn't say that they're an inside team...but they do have a decent inside game in Sheldon Williams. One that can't be ignored. And I'm the fucking moron? You want to deal with facts? Your entire arguement is based on your opinion. You're right, the stats don't lie...Duke has committed less fouls than their opponents in all but four games...pretty simple. The stats also say that Duke is #1. The stats say that Duke has the best record in NCAA div. 1 basketball. The team stats say that Duke has attempted 534 3-point shots (99th) and made 216 (34th), that's 7.7 per game (also 34th) with a 3-point shooting percentage of 40.4% (11th). They only make 7.7 3s a game. That's 7.7 additional PPG from 3s. Wow, you're right, no wonder they dominate. Wake up retard. Their success comes from their accuracy. Shooting percentage is more important than shots attempted. Duke has a 50.4% FG shooting percentage (2nd) and averages 83.5 PPG (1st). If 23.1 of those points come from 3s, where do the rest come from? Their asses? Those are the stats my friend. You can state your opinion all day long and it's still going to be wrong.Originally posted by SloppyJoComment
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Oh...and your beloved Huskies have shot more free-throws than their opponents in all but 3 of their 27 games. So, quit cryin.Comment
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which would make sense because they have an incredible inside game with Hilton Armstrong, Josh Boone, Rudy Gay, and Jeff Adrian... most analysis would say is the best inside team in the country... that is UCONN's game, pound it inside all game, that's why Marcus Williams avg's almost 9 assists per game, and that's why they would shoot more free throws... which is why they only avg 13.5 3PA's a gameOriginally posted by babyblues
unlike Duke who has... Shelden Williams, one inside player
not to mention JJ Redick has more FTA's then any two Huskies combined! So you tell me how the best outside shooter on Duke's team has more foul shots then their center (Redick 217 - Williams 215)... Your telling me that teams foul Redick "on purpose"... the best %FT shooter in the league??? yeah that makes sense...
I never said Duke wasn't a good percentage shooting team... I was questioning how a 3-Pt shooting team, Duke, always ends up with more free-throws then there opponent, then you said "They hammer the ball inside to Shelden Willams".
out of those 83.1 ppg... 19.7 come from the free throw line, 18.8 come from Shelden Williams, 21.3 come from three point land, which leaves 23.3 points from Redick and the rest of the team from the floor... sounds like a 3 POINT SHOOTING TEAM to me except for the fact that the free-throw number is extremely high for an outside shooting team
Good job! keep going with your pointless stats that don't back up your argument!Last edited by SloppyJo; 02-27-06, 06:48 PM.Comment
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actually 4 gamesOriginally posted by babybluesComment
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Whew.... interesting game as your boy barely squeaked past that dominate San Fran. team.... haha.... oh lord.Comment
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Who happens to be better than any of your Huskies...suck it.Originally posted by SloppyJo
You know, it just might be possible that Redick shoots so many foul shots BECAUSE HE GETS FOULED ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it just might be possible that he gets fouled alot because teams respect his shooting ability and face guard him 30 ft from the hoop. If Redick handles the ball more than anyone else, and takes more shots than anyone else, than it would stand to reason that he would probably get fouled more than anyone else. My god, it's really pretty simple. So why does Marcus Williams average more foul shots made per game than any of your incredible "inside" players? You're saying that the only reason fouls are called against Duke's opponents is because the refs are sucking Redick's dick? Cause Redick really isn't very good, it's all because of the refs, right? And Duke really isn't the number 1 team because the polls are obviously rigged in their favor, right? Redick scores alot of points from beyond the arc, obviously. But he also takes the ball to the hoop alot and gets fouled in the processes. He works hard to get his shots. Fuckin UConn fans. Always jealous when Duke is ranked higher. Blame it on the refs. Duke is a good fucking team. Denying that by claiming that referees help them win just makes you look stupid.Originally posted by SloppyJoComment
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Ok, you obviously can't have an intelligent debate with someone without insulting them, as I can tell from half of your posts on here. You sound as some child always having to be right and when anyone contradicts you, you get your panties in a wad.Originally posted by babyblues
My final words because I'm done arguing with an ignorant Duke fan that probably jumped on the bandwagon in the late 90s...
I don't know where you got your stats from, but Marcus Williams does not lead the team with FTA, Rudy Gay does... Williams just has a better FT%
And I'll guarentee that Rudy Gay will go higher in the draft as a SOPHMORE than Shelden Williams as a senior... but that's right Shelden is better :rolleyes:
When did I say the refs were sucking redicks dick??? go back and read it, i said the announcers were b/c Shelden Williams got screwed out of player of the game when he pretty much won the game for Duke and Redick didn't do shit...
Did I say Duke didn't deserve to be #1??? don't think so...
Did I say Redick wasn't good??? don't think so...
Ohh that makes sense... Redick gets fouled all of the time b/c he get's face guarded... yeah why make him try to take a low percentage shot from outside??? lets just put him on the free throw line where he's 88%... genious... pure genious... I'm sure all opposing coaches tell their players to just foul him that way he's guarenteed to hit 2 free throws instead of being 43% from 3 pt land and 50% from the floor...
And by the way... Redick is a SHOOTING GUARD not a POINT GUARD... he doesn't handle the ball more, that's not his job, he doesn't bring the ball upcourt nor does he run the plays... he comes off of screens looking for the outside shots, he makes cuts and looks for the ball when the play is run... go ahead and actually WATCH a game, and watch who handles the ball more, Paulus or Redick...
Taken from ESPN's Scouting Report
I think you need to try watching a few basketball games before you tell me that the point of a shooting guard is to handle the ball... considering he "is not an oustanding athlete"...A streaky shooter, but still one of the purest in the country ... Has terrific elevation, discipline and poise in his form ... Releases the ball at the top of his elevation ... Much of the reason for his hot and cold tendencies lies in his shot-selection, not mechanics ... Possesses range that borders on unreal, and he occasionally gets caught up in that ability ... Will take 3-pointers from well beyond the stripe ... Uses his outside shooting ability to create mid-range shots for himself, throwing pump fakes to open up pull-up jumpers ... Has solid finishing ability when he gets deep in the lane, but is not an outstanding athlete ... Defense needs improvement.
And what does it matter that Duke is #1??? Your obsessed that Duke is #1 but guess what??? it doesn't mean shit when it comes to march madness... the only thing that matters is who's #1 when the smoke clears
Fucking Duke fans... always think they are the best team to ever play the game, and if anyone differs in opinion they flip out (point in case)... always have their head up their ass.. I can't even watch a Duke game with the volume turned up b/c I feel like I'm going to puke b/c of the announcers and how they constently, non-stop, for the entire game, worship Duke and Coach Gay... it's sickeningComment
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pretty much anything you say in response can be answered here
It's a year old... but still hold's true
III. Media Bias.
The general public’s unawareness of the foregoing is perpetuated by the sports media’s irrational love for anything associated with Duke basketball. For reasons unimaginable, sportscasters, commentators, and writers constantly turn blind eyes to the plethora of reasons to despise the place, all while perpetuating the myths that Coach K and his Cameron Crazies are embodiments of class. Indeed, the media has become so jaded in its bias that it has taken to viewing Duke players as the victims of unfair and undeserved
hostility. A perfect example was aired by ESPN immediately after Duke’s second loss to Maryland this season. The network devoted a lengthy segment to the subject of how low opposing fans will go to get inside poor JJ Redick’s head. The segment started by showing JJ shooting alone in a quite and dark gym that he considers his quite and comfortable home, the absurd implication being that Duke offers a calm and reverent venue. Next, game clips of rival fans, mostly from Maryland, are shown shouting at Redick. From there, JJ himself, in a sickeningly sanctimonious tone of voice, bemoans the startling comments that he has heard from opposing school’s students and fans. Midway through the piece, Chris Collins, of all people, offers his opinions as to what is and is not acceptable from a sportsmanship standpoint. The segment ends with JJ reading poetry and scripture, which he explains help him through his tribulations. All of this, mind you, from a player whose supporting student body annually raises the bar for the most despicable courtside conduct in the country. The entire segment was preposterous, yet, at no point, did ESPN even hint at the possible irony.
Well, JJ, to your inspirational book of poetry, please allow me to contribute the following gems of wisdom, which hopefully will further assist you in enduring your life’s toils:
People who live in glass houses, should not throw stones. You reap what you sow. What goes around comes around.
As with its misguided adulation of the Duke student body and players, the media for some odd reason goes to absurd extremes to worship Krzyzewski as the ultimate role model. A classic case in point came in the 2001 season. Duke, in a home game against Georgia Tech, runs its lead to 44 points with under a minute to play, due largely to three point shooting that continued long after the game had passed the point of gratuitous humiliation. Finally, as the clock went under thirty seconds, Duke graciously holds the ball for its final possession in lieu of a final field goal attempt. Mike Patrick, in his annoyingly dogmatic tone of voice, shouts, “Doesn’t that just show what a classy guy Mike Krzyzewski is? He doesn’t want to embarrass anybody.” It was as if the difference between a 44 and 46 point nationally televised drubbing was somehow a magnanimous show of sportsmanship.
The extent to which the media has become blind in its love for this program is astounding. Remember a few seasons ago when Duke came back from ten points down to Maryland in the final minute of play? A great comeback, no doubt, but Mike Patrick once again lost all grips on reality by emphatically stating how it was the most amazing thing he had ever seen. Apparently, Mike missed it when Carolina came back from eight points down in seventeen seconds, with no three-point shot available - against Duke, by the way.
To this day, we are still afflicted with video clips of Christian Laettner’s buzzer beating shot against Kentucky in the 1992 regional finals. Undoubtedly, it will remain firmly etched in the middle of CBS’s road to the final four for perpetuity. And why? A dramatic shot? Sure. But how many more spectacular - and far more significant – tournament shots have there been? How about a freshman named Jordan hitting the game winner in the 1982 National Championship game? N.C. State’s Lorenzo Charles dunking home the championship winner the very next year in one of the great Cinderella stories? Laettner’s shot was good, but please, for the love of Pete, spare us further viewing of this well-worn
piece of film.IV. Bias of Game Officials.
The media bias, while annoying to be sure, pales in comparison, and significance, to that of the game’s officials. By now, most have heard how Duke’s basketball team has experienced seasons where its players convert more free throws than their opponents attempt. Admittedly, this fact, standing alone, is not necessarily cause for criticism, as smaller and lesser talented teams are more likely to foul their bigger, quicker, more
talented adversaries. In Duke’s case, however, the actual numbers, when viewed in appropriate context, are staggering. In 2000-01, the last championship season, Duke actually attempted 1,002 free throws, compared to its opponents’ 701 attempts.
Think about that statistic for a moment - over one thousand free throws. During that season, Duke players were assessed with 659 fouls; the opposition, 848. The year before, Duke converted on 618 free throws, 81 more than its opponents attempted. Certainly, the foregoing statistics are absurd in themselves, but the issue becomes truly inexplicable when one considers the team’s traditionally aggressive approach to the game. Krzyzewski, remember, shuns the zone defense, insisting instead that his players confront even superior athletes with his signature, hard-nosed man-to-man. By its nature, man-to-man is a more physical defensive style, one that usually generates a higher foul count than the more passive zone alternatives, but somehow not for Duke. Instead, Duke players routinely waltz to the charity stripe at twice the rate of their opponents, all while hacking, slapping, and hand-checking opponents up and down the court.
Remember too that Duke regularly leads the conference in steals and blocked shots - other tell-tale signs of aggressive play - and still enjoys prodigious advantages in foul tallies. Going back to the title year, for example, Duke had 411 steals compared to its opponents’ 282; Duke blocked 196 shots, its opponents, 117. Inside players, meanwhile, feast off of a constant barrage of moving picks and not-so subtle pushes. Danny Ferry, for example, was allowed to shove his way to better collegiate rebound stats than any number of superior inside players who have subsequently, in pro ball, easily exposed his dearth of true skills.
During the mid-1980’s, an ACC coach anonymously explained Duke’s defensive philosophy as follows: all five defensive players foul all five opposing offensive players at the same time, leaving officials too confused and stunned to respond. Since then, Duke’s impunity has evolved to the point where the game’s rules simply do not apply to the school. Referees absolutely refuse to blow the whistle when Daniel Ewing and Redick push off defenders with their left hands; Duke guards are never penalized for extending their arms laterally to obstruct opposing players’ movements; moving interior screens are simply expected; Shelden Williams swings his elbows into opposing player’s faces throughout games in which he collects a total of 3 personal fouls, (none as a result of his headhunting); Coach K screams himself hoarse with profanity with never a technical called. And who could forget this year’s first UNC-Duke game where K presumptuously ambled onto the court, in the middle of play, to talk strategy with Redick. As Billy Packer himself noted, it was undisputable grounds for a technical foul, but the refs never thought of blowing the whistle.
The foul disparities become more baffling still, when one considers Duke’s prevailing offensive approach. In recent years, Duke has emphasized the three point shot. For roughly the past five seasons, the offensive philosophy reminds one of the 1980s Loyola-Maramount squads as Duke players repeatedly jack up one long-range shot after another. Usually, such a team approach produces low foul counts for the opposition, as outside shooters are rarely fouled. Nevertheless, Duke’s free throw advantage continues unabated, even as JJ Redick runs and guns in a fashion that would make Rick Pitino proud.
Virtually every Duke game is a perfect example of the favoritism the players receive, but this year’s classic case study has to be the first of the Duke — Virginia Tech games. Played at Duke, the game began with Shelden Williams driving his elbow at freshman center Deron Washington’s head, causing him to hit the deck. No foul was called, Williams scored an uncontested first two points of the game, and the tone was set. Throughout the game, Williams pushed, elbowed, and bullied his way through VT’s younger frontcourt players, with officials doing nothing. In the same game, however, the officials whistled an astounding thirty-four team fouls on Virginia Tech, many of which would have gone uncalled in a church league game. An amazing twenty-two fouls — nearly enough to foul out four players – were called in the first half alone. Not surprisingly, Duke won the game by 35 points, 30 of which were scored from the foul line. In an interesting contrast, when the same two teams met only weeks later in Blacksburg, the team foul tallies were essentially even. The result? A Virginia Tech win, (after which JJ Redick’s father complained publicly about the student body’s poor sportsmanship.)
To make matters worse, during the first game, the Duke students began chanting, “Please stop fouling,” as if Tech was attempting to have its entire team disqualified. As the son of a V.M.I. graduate, I have no love for Virginia Tech, but could there be a greater example of the absurd lengths to which officials go with their favoritism?
A. The Duke Flop.
A principal reason for the disparity in foul totals is the outrageous manner in which game officials apply the ever-subjective offensive foul rule. You know the scenario: An opposing player blows by a slower Duke defender while being closely guarded thirty feet from the basket. As the player races to the hoop for a lay-up, another Duke player jumps into his path, often while the offensive player is in the air, deliberately causing a dangerous collision near the basket. The late arriving defender falls over backwards, arms flailing, with a melodramatic shriek. As sure as the sun sets in the West, one of the three game referees will run to the scene, often from far out of position, hand clasped behind his head, whistle sounding loudly, all with Krzyzewski’s pumping fist signaling his approval in the background. Of course, when the opposition attempts to return the favor, the call is just as surely a block or, at best, a no call.
While many times the Duke player accomplishes his goal of creating a violent collision, any given game brings several additional defensive “plays” in which a Duke defender drops to the floor when his opponent so much as breathes on him. The Duke team is so thoroughly trained to resort to this regularly rewarded tactic that it is common so see them fall anywhere on the court - near the basket, at mid-court, in the backcourt, sometimes while the offensive player is simply dribbling laterally, making no effort to move towards the basket. During the closing seconds of its last loss to Maryland, for instance, a Duke defender actually flopped beneath Maryland’s defensive
goal on an inbounds play. It seems only a matter of time before a Duke player is awarded a charge call for taking a seat at the scorer’s table. Any time is a good time for a Duke defender to dive under the feet of an offensive player in an effort to manufacture offensive fouls.
This patented “Duke flop” is without doubt the most maddening innovation of the Coach K era, (with his players’ tendency to slap the floor at midcourt in a purported show of defensive solidarity running a close second). Over the course of an average game, the Duke opponent sees five to six baskets, or ten to twelve points (fifteen to eighteen if we count the three-point play that should have resulted), erased by this grossly one-sided call. Duke, meanwhile, receives an additional five to six free throws as opponents are regularly whistled for blocks. Year after year, legendary athletes, from Jordan to Bias to Duncan to Carter, are unfairly handicapped by the spectrum of inferior Duke players jumping into their paths and flopping backwards, even if contact is avoided. Indeed, it is not unusual for slow-motion replays to show Duke defenders beginning their staged falls, before, occasionally in the total absence of, actual contact. Much to the chagrin of flop-leader Shane Battier, it was because of this infuriating nonsense that the NBA actually amended its rules to prohibit offensive fouls from being called as the result of charges within five feet of the basket. And for great reason: games should not turn on the basis of inferior athletes deliberately diving into an opposing player’s path in order to manufacture an offensive foul call. This is not basketball. It breaks the flow of any game, angers fans, and endangers athletes. In a broader sense, it perverts the game by shaving points from opposing teams’ scores while simultaneously saddling their players with fouls that should never be charged.
B. Bastardizing Game Effects of Pro-Duke Officiating.
Think the officials’ bias is inconsequential or overstated? Think again. While the numbers themselves tell the story, decades of history provide extensive anecdotal evidence of the college ref’s embellishing impact. How many of the all time Duke basketball greats promptly proceeded to fizzle at the next level where game rules are actually enforced in an unbiased manner and where defenders must actually defend their opponents? Mark Alarie, Johnny Dawkins, David Henderson, Billy King, Robert Brickey, Phil Henderson,
Kevin Strickland, Danny Ferry, Alaa Abdelnaby, Brian Davis, Antonio Lang, Cherokee Parks, William Avery, Shane Battier, Dahntay Jones, Chris Carawell, Mike Dunleavy — the list is seemingly endless. Past Duke rosters read like a “Who’s Who?” of professional basketball jokes, most of whom are quickly shipped out to European leagues because of their inability to make it in the NBA. With the sole exceptions of Grant Hill (on those rare seasons when he does not - like his college mentor — sit out entire seasons for injuries), Elton Brand, and Carlos Boozer, it would be fair to say that every Coach K
era Duke basketball star has, at the pro level, either completely failed or substantially under performed vis-à-vis his college record, with Danny Ferry perhaps best symbolizing the stuff of the Duke basketball reality check.
Even all-time media darling Christian Laettner has unwittingly exposed the extent to which his collegiate success depended upon Coach K’s striped worshipers. Laettner’s career NBA numbers (12.7 points, 6.7 rebounds per game) are reasonably respectable, even if accumulated while being traded more frequently than Krzyzewski’s hair dye schedule. However, his career, which includes but a single All-Star game, falls far short of the greatness that hoops analysts projected on the basis of his golden boy college years. And does anyone seriously believe that the trend of pro duds will end with
JJ Redick and Randolph Shavlick?
Compare the post-collegiate accomplishments of the following UNC grads from the same time period: Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, Kenny Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace, Antawn Jameson, Vince Carter. The group has collected enough NBA rings, All-Star appearances, and MVP awards to fill the Dean Dome. Nevertheless, each of these players, with the possible exception of Worthy, who went pro before Krzyzewski was given his sainthood status, struggled against the one-sided neutralizing effect of the collegiate officials.
Other absurd examples of the Duke flop’s bastardizing effect on the game abound. When I attended Duke, for example, the student body rejoiced as Christian Laettner actually got the better of a vaunted LSU center named Shaquille O’Neal. Two seasons earlier, Christian finished with better numbers than Alonzo Mourning. These unfathomable outcomes were all due to the inane manner with which the college official favors Duke above any other team.
The mystery to all of this is why college refs would show such transparent favoritism to a program of haughty whiners. Remember Phil Henderson’s publicized mid-season tirade about Lenny Wirtz? How about Krzyzewski’s tendency to hold mid-court tantrums, replete with profanity, any time his team falls behind in a game? Just last season, the man experienced a seemingly endless meltdown, which would have made any spoiled three year-old envious, as his team lost at home to Georgia Tech. Who could forget K’s Classless screaming to refs “you killed us” after his team’s 2004 semifinal loss to UConn :bravonew: . Or Matt Christiansen physically accosting a referee in the aftermath of an earlier Duke tournament loss, only to be recognized weeks later by Coach K as the player who most exemplifies Duke basketball. And still the refs treat these spoiled louts as if they were their own fair-haired children. At any rate, it is because of the Duke players’ inability to adjust to the shock of objectively enforced rules that so many fail in the NBA, and in
Europe (e.g., Casey Saunders’ cut by a Swedish team), and quickly return - where else - to Duke to rejoin Coach K as an assistant coach. Any given year brings us a team of real world flops who take on the role of assistant coach. Currently, two of Duke’s more obnoxious alumni - Chris Collins and Steve Wojokowski - join Johnny Dawkins in this capacity. Others, such as Tommy Amaker, Quinn Snyder, David Henderson, have found homes as equally underachieving college head coaches.Last edited by SloppyJo; 02-28-06, 12:44 PM.Comment
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Whatever. That's your opinion. I think it's wrong. I still like Duke.Originally posted by SloppyJoLast edited by babyblues; 02-28-06, 01:16 PM.Comment
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How's that? :nerdnew:Originally posted by babybluesComment
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Do you know what 'IF' means... that would mean that if he thought duke is an inside team, then he would be a fucking moron... then he said he didn't think duke was an inside team, so he wouldn't be a fucking moron... simple english reallyOriginally posted by radoComment
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I have a prediction that since Reddick dosn't have any records he's close to breaking and distracting him, he will score 50pts tonight :)Comment
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Yeah, hopefully the refs won't blow this game against Fl. St. like they did the last one in OT...Originally posted by Shibby
Fl. St. - 10/11 FT
Dook - 31/43 FT
And the sad part is Dook still would have lost even though they shot 4 times as many free throws if the refs didn't hand them the game with that bullshit technical foul on Johnson about 9 mins left in the game... well at least they got suspended one game for it :rolleyes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...601525_pf.htmlComment
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