Israel...

[blm]

We and our children will have to pay this debt in the form of higher taxes and less federal government services for decades.

:agree:

[Primal Instinct]

This is all indirectly, or, depending how you view it, directly, the result of the splitting of land after WWII. The hezbollah have outright stated that they won't rest until israel is eliminated, the palestinians have fought forever for their own nation (which they can't run worth shit due to infighting and widespread corruption). Ariel Sharon, who at one time was considered one of the most hawkish of PM's for israel actually made a ton of concessions to allow the palestinians to have their own land.
however after the last elections, the hezbollah in palestine won and more problems were created. there are two factions of the hezbollah, those that are moderate and stated they'd abide by the treaties, and the ones who won't (the "old guard" so to speak) which is based in syria, hence israel buzzing their leaders house w/ several fighter planes. The portion of hezbollah who refuses to recognize the independence of israel doesn't want to lose control, and its their factions that orchestrated the several raids in which israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
israel wisely refuses to negotiate, not that they don't have something to gain from this invasion, but I hardly think it was a huge plot that they were waiting for the chance to hatch. negotiating w/ hezbollah and having a prisoner exchange would only encourage further actions of that sort in the future, this is the same reason why the US government refuses to negotiate with terrorists as we don't wish to encourage futher acts. at the same time israel feels it should be safe from rocket attacks.
so israel has made conditions that aren't really feasible for peace... they want to have lebanon send troops to control the border which would essentially create another civil war in that many lebanese troops wouldn't dare fight their own "brethren," israel doesn't want an independent foreign (UN) force to guard the area because they'd be prevented from making further incursions due to the outcry that would create, etc.
in all, its a bunch of children who can't play well and refuse to compromise. everyone wants a piece of the pie.

The thing is, Lebanon is mainly christian, not muslim. They are arabs surely, but not in the same fashion as heavily dominated muslim nations. Still, they are a weak government newly formed and have just spent trillions of dollars to rebuild after a 15 year civil war. They simply don't have a strong military yet that can root out terrorists. Israel fully knows this but their air attacks are not primarily strategic in the sense that they are targeting simply Hezbollah strongholds or safehouse. They have targeted the Lebanese military bases and airstrips even though the military has not responded to the Israeli invasion. I don't think that they want the Lebanese to have any sort of respectable military because that would hinder Israeli designs on annexing southern Lebanon. Also, Israeli jets/bombers are targeting critical infrastructure that will take more than a decade to rebuild and more trillions of dollars. This is unacceptable and should be raising flags about what their true intentions really are. Israel very well could have approached the Lebanese government and asked to work with them in an effort to oust Hezbollah but they didn't. Why not? The strong Syrian influence was since removed from Lebanese government. Why are urban housing developments getting leveled in Beruit when the Israelis themselves declared that the Hezbollah terrorists were residing in southern Lebanon? Look deeper than the surface on these matters and see what you might learn. It could surprise you.


Almost everywhere except the US and Israel decries these actions but we'd never know it to watch the mainstream media here. Our news is severley slanted towards pro-Israeli actions all of the time. They are always purported to be the good guys, the victims. That is not so. Sometimes they are victims but often times they are the aggressor. There is no balance in our media coverage in that respect...and for a very good reason too.


As for the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, Hezbollah was wrong in their actions to do that but you also must understand their reasoning behind it. There are over 9,000 arab prisoners currently being held in Israeli prisons. Many are Palestinians and many are held without being charged with any crimes. A lot of them were picked up in massive sweeps during the Palestinian uprising but there are likely a large number of innocents jailed as well. Israel gets upset about 3 kidnapped and 8 dead soldiers but they (and the US media) seemingly ignores the fact of the ratio of dead Palestinians to Israelis stands at an average of 8:1. Then of course, 9,000 palestinains held captive versus 3 Israeli soldiers. WOW. People don't realize this and often times have to actually search for such common ommissions from a balanced media report.


Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not defending Hezbollah for their actions here but I can definitely see the reasons behind their motivations. Do you think that bombing Lebanon and killing almost entirely civilians in the process, taking out their civilian housing, destroying their routes to work, their airports and all roads (except one) out of the country will make Israel (and the US by extension) any endearing new friends there in the region or will it create a new surge in anti-western sentiments there? A whole new generation of terrorists will be borne from this recent conflict. Some of which may even kill one of us readers here in future terrorist attack on US soil. Only the US could stop further aggressive and destruction actions by Israel. The rest of the world understands that and sees us sitting back and allowing such atrocities to happen. They'll remember this too.


Israel knew exactly what it was creating with these actions but they have Big Daddy (the US) to defend them at every turn if the going gets rough. It is certainly NOT unreasonable that the Israel wants to draw the US into armed conflict with its adversaries. Like in Iraq, the US can do the heavy lifting for Israel without Israel having to spend any money or lives to accomplish this task. The US is being used in many various ways by Israel and we wouldn't know it gauging by the nightly newscasts. Both sides are at fault in this conflict but Israel is over responding intentionally and for other purposes than what we are told.

[bonkerzz]

im behind Israel 100%....people just need to stop messing with Israel,everybody doesnt like Israel because they kicked the palestinians out...but 3000 years ago the israelis lived there before them,hmmm.leave jesus land alone,Israeli's dont play.

[Mr I]

Isreal has had alot of support in the past, as has the Jewish Community all over the world, ever since WWII, at times it seems as though since the end of WWII thats when the trouble really started.

[Primal Instinct]

im behind Israel 100%....people just need to stop messing with Israel,everybody doesnt like Israel because they kicked the palestinians out...but 3000 years ago the israelis lived there before them,hmmm.leave jesus land alone,Israeli's dont play.

bonkerzz,

I respectfully disagree with your reasoning above. I am not arguing that your opinion is invalid by any means, however the reasons you've stated are factually incorrect and is popular misconception promoted by mainstream media and zionist interests that have much power in our government agencies and media outlets here in the US.


You should read up on the history of the region dating back as far as you can find. However, stay away from both pro-israeli and pro-arab sites and try to find unbiased publications to formulate an accurate depictiction.


The Caananites lived there prior to the Israelites' arrival in the land now called Israel or Palestine. You will find that later, although there were jews (Israelites) living in the region, they certainly weren't the only ones there nor did they have any legitimate claims of sovereignty over the land. Other people living there on that land before the Israelites arrived were small indigenous tribes and nomads with no formal claim on a city-state. In fact, the OT of the bible called the Israelite people Israel, which may have been named for Isaac (one of the books implies that Israel was simply another name for Isaac), Abraham's son. Considering this, decendants of Isaac could therfore be called Israel. So, it was not even an actual place but the name of a group of people for a long time. It wasn't the land of Israel either for a long time but instead it was known as Canaan. You cannot return to a place that you''ve never been to. It was written that Canaan was promised by "God" to be "inherited" by Israelites. In actuality, Canaan was conquered by the Israelites between 1200- 100 BC. In other words, THEY DISPLACED an indigenous population to establish residency there.


You should also consider that the claims of passage of return and the land of Israel as the promised land by God are directly taken from the Old Testament, the Torah, the two Talamuds, and other writings authored by jews. Likewise, other religious texts claiming holy sites, etc are authored by their own respective religious proponents such as in the case of Islam. These types of religious texts are obviously self-promotional and must be considered as such by one who wishes to remain neutral and maintain an unbiased view of the situation. For that very reason, one cannot use any of these writings as an authoritative stance in determining the validity of claims of land ownership.


Establishing the temple of Solomon (versions I & II) in Jerusalem or thereabout also does not indicate land ownership or any sort of sovereignty, regardless that after the reign of Solomon, the kingdom split into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel. Still, they declared each a "kingdom" but had no legitimate claim to the land on which they held. This is analogous to the europeans who came here to the US in the late 1400's and built settlements (later, colonies) on land formally declared as established nations of various American Indian tribes such as the Iroquois, Apache, Seneca, Seminole and Navaho nations. It was their land but the indians became overwhelmed in many aspects due to heavy immigration of non-indigenous people crowding them out.


As for defending Israel without knowing the many of the pertinent facts about them, did you know that Israel intentionally attacked a US warship in neutral waters in 1967? They killed 34 and wounded 173 americans in the prolonged attack. The ship was state of the art but rendered destroyed and sold for scrap metal. Short story: Israel sent aircraft with rockets, bombs and machine guns to attack an identified US naval vessel. Next, they then sent out surface ships who strafed the deck and even shot at the inflatable life boats. It was considered an Israeli war crime against the US but was never prosecuted and kept hidden from the US public for several decades mostly due to the heavy permeation of Israeli influence in our Legislative and Executive branches of our own government.


I truly believe that Israel had attempted to sink the US naval vessel with all hands and then claim that an arab nation attacked the boat in order to create a military intervention with the US destroying one or more of the arab nations surrounding Israel. In other words, intentionally killing a US ship and then claim that Egypt, Syria or Jordan did it so that the US would wipe out Israel's mortal enemies for them. More Israeli security in the form of war prosecuted by their proxy, the US military. This whole thing was whitewashed by Israel and key elements within our own military and civilian government. Read this finding War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel, June 8, 1967 here and see if you still feel the same way about the Israeli government. June 8th has been declared USS Liberty rememberance day in the US.


Hopefully, this clears up any misconceptions. I am researching this topic in careful consideration of writing a book on the current crisis in the middle east as it pertains to the arab-Israeli tensions and their modern origins. Increasingly, I have found that competition for the natural resources of the region are the real underlying causes of tension in the last 100 years.

[Bouncer]

And BTW, my last name is Cohn, from the Hebrew word "kohen" (or cohen) meaning a direct male decendent of the Biblical Aaron, brother of Moses.

Learn something new every day. I have a good friend in philly, his last name is cohen.

[Bouncer]

:baby: i guess that explains all your whining....

over the top. one more response like that and your banned.

[Bouncer]

kill them all take there oil and make walmarts and home depots thats what id do

Ya, because the world needs more walmarts right? Is that where you do most of your shopping? :breakit:

[Mr I]

bonkerzz,

I truly believe that Israel had attempted to sink the US naval vessel with all hands and then claim that an arab nation attacked the boat in order to create a military intervention with the US destroying one or more of the arab nations surrounding Israel. In other words, intentionally killing a US ship and then claim that Egypt, Syria or Jordan did it so that the US would wipe out Israel's mortal enemies for them. More Israeli security in the form of war prosecuted by their proxy, the US military. This whole thing was whitewashed by Israel and key elements within our own military and civilian government. Read this finding War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel, June 8, 1967 here and see if you still feel the same way about the Israeli government. June 8th has been declared USS Liberty rememberance day in the US.

IMO the Jewish community does seem to make a bee line for powerful jobs; lawyers, finance, politics, if not business. Thats not a criticism just an observation but it does have the potential to make others fear what they're up to, its as if they have to control everything.

[SonofBone]

Hopefully, this clears up any misconceptions. I am researching this topic in careful consideration of writing a book on the current crisis in the middle east as it pertains to the arab-Israeli tensions and their modern origins. Increasingly, I have found that competition for the natural resources of the region are the real underlying causes of tension in the last 100 years.

Do you really think writing a book on this matter would be in your best interest? What I'm trying to say is...do you think it would be allowed to be published or if it was published, would you put yourself at risk?

I can tell by the information you've provided here that you'll produce an excellent book that is interesting, eye opening, and easy to read. I would definitely read it, but some folks may not want light being shed on this information.

Would you produce it Dan Brown style like Angels & Demons or would it be William Cooper style like Behold a Pale Horse (supposedly factual)? Either way, I hope that you do produce it and you've intrigued me to look into the situation further.

[babyblues]

Learn something new every day. I have a good friend in philly, his last name is cohen.

Cool! William Cohen, US Secretary of Defense from 1997 - 2001 was born in Bangor, Maine (where I grew up). He was mayor of Bangor from 71 - 72 and after that served on the US House of Representatives and then the US Senate. He's served on the Senate Armed Services and Governmental Affairs Committee and the Senate Committee on Intelligence until he was selected as Secretary of Defense by Clinton. My father's name is William Cohn and we used to get phone calls every once in a while from people upset over something or other and insisting that they wanted to talk to Mr. Cohen. Ha Ha. It was pretty funny cause a few of them called more than once.

[babyblues]

you've intrigued me to look into the situation further.

I agree. I love learning about stuff like this. It's driven me to educate myself more on the subject. I did find this about water in the Middle East. I don't know how accurate it is. http://www.wws.princeton.edu/wws401c/geography.html

Primal Instince:

While I disagree on your interpretation of the facts, I'm greatly impressed with your knowledge of the facts. I don't agree that the conflict centers around water, but I will admit that the struggle to obtain the water they need is magnified and intensified by the conflict. I think it's vaguely similar to the idea that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. That became the most popular topic of contention during the Civil War, but wasn't the cause of it. I just believe that the conflict stems from something that's much more than that.

[Shibby]

Primal, could you recomend some good books already published in refrence to what we are talking about here?

[Primal Instinct]

Thanks for the kind words, SonofBone. I would be writing something as sensitive as this as a pseudonym. I agree that certain publishing houses would reject it solely on the basis of the topic alone but perhaps a smaller publisher would take a chance on me.


I am only working on a tentative outline at this point and I still need to estimate the time and expense of such a complex endeavor. I'm leaning towards do this thing but I haven't totally made up my mind quite yet. I estimate about 6-8 months of actual writing/rewriting, quoting sources, etc., and then who knows how long editorial revisions will take if the book even gets accepted.


I still need to do a lot more research including a trip to the middle east to interview Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrian government officials and citizens. Perhaps even officials of Hamas and Hezbollah as well, if they'll see me. I want to be able to present effective arguments on all sides to frame in the real underlying issues including the struggle of the Dome of the Rock/al Aqsa mosque presence versus the rebuilding of the third temple of Solomon on the same exact site in Jerusalem. The duality of this holy site to both the jews and the muslims is intriguing, to say the least. It's a religious ideology powder keg waiting to explode. Sooner or later this dilemma will come to a point and there will be no turning back when it finally comes down to which of two jewish schools of thought wins the debate on whether or not the rebuilding should begin to bring about the coming of the messiah. Of course, rebuilding the third temple pf Solomon would need to be preceded by destruction of the third holiest site in Islam triggering a holy war between muslims and jews (perhaps even christians aka the US). The Dome of the Rock is thought by the muslims to have been the exact site where Mohammed ascended directly to heaven. There is so much to it that it might make for a completely seperate book altogether.

Anyway, it would be the only way that I could feel like it was all worth it is if I covered all angles. I would write it in the fashion of Thomas Friedman's "America's Secret War." In other words, almost entirely from various sources but with much undisputed regional history and facts. I'll probably get an ulcer writing it, lol.



babyblues,

That's all anyone can ask for -someone to research a topic thoroughly- and make up their own minds about a situation. You make an interesting point with your slavery analogy. All things should be considered in stuff like this. Like WMD wasn't realy the cause for US invasion of Iraq but it served the Bush Administration well as a convienient (and generally unverifiable to the general public) propaganda item to strike fear into US citizens to garner support for a long planned regime change there. All that was needed to get it rolling was a foot in the door. Once the genie gets out there's no putting him back into the bottle. The neocon hawks knew that and wouldn't miss that chance to enact their agenda for the world. They waited 8 years for it already and had to do it while Cheney was still alive and in a position of authority.

[Primal Instinct]

Primal, could you recomend some good books already published in refrence to what we are talking about here?

Hi Shibby,


I'm sorry but I don't want to read other works on this topic so that I am insulated against influences in my writing. I would however, highly recommend that you read any material by Stephen C. Pelletiere. He was the top CIA analyst on Iraq, Iran, the Kurds and Turkey from the late 80's into the late 90's then went on to teach as a professor at the US Army War College in Carlisle, Pa. He retired in 2002 and has written numerous books on US military and foreign policy. Here are two sequential links to a seminar he hosted as a guest speaker just two months prior to the invasion of Iraq. He called everything that happened BEFORE it happened, including the contents of the upcoming Colin Powell speech to the UN weeks before the US invasion. This gives him a great deal of credibility on such matters. Remember, he was on the inside for several years at a top level security clearance and knew how politics and government worked on a geopolitical level. He is very insightful and presents things in an easily digestable manner. I'd hope to interview this man if I write my book.

Two valuable videoclips that people should see:
Q & A With CIA Analyst Stephen Pelletiere: CIA Analysis: The Predicament Mr. Bush And The Pentagon Have Gotten US Into (part 1)

Q & A With CIA Analyst Stephen Pelletiere: Exposing the lies: Who killed the Kurds? Israel's part in a US invasion of Iraq. (part 2)



Also check out WATER RESOURCES OF THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORY which is a UN report on the subject prepared by Palestinian representatives. The facts themselves are backed up by data indicated by footnotes.


One book that might illustrate my theory on the current Israeli-Lebanese conflict that I will recommend is available @ Amazon called The Middle Eastern Environment: Selected Papers of the 1995 Conference of the British Society for Middle Eastern Studies It's $35. but you can probably pick it up cheaper at a local bookstore for less.