Israel...

[Shibby]

I understand Primal, this is enough info for me to find something for me to read, It gives me a good idea on the type of material to look for. Thanks.

[babyblues]

I want to be able to present effective arguments on all sides to frame in the real underlying issues including the struggle of the Dome of the Rock/al Aqsa mosque presence versus the rebuilding of the third temple of Solomon on the same exact site in Jerusalem. The duality of this holy site to both the jews and the muslims is intriguing, to say the least. It's a religious ideology powder keg waiting to explode. Sooner or later this dilemma will come to a point and there will be no turning back when it finally comes down to which of two jewish schools of thought wins the debate on whether or not the rebuilding should begin to bring about the coming of the messiah. Of course, rebuilding the third temple pf Solomon would need to be preceded by destruction of the third holiest site in Islam triggering a holy war between muslims and jews (perhaps even christians aka the US). The Dome of the Rock is thought by the muslims to have been the exact site where Mohammed ascended directly to heaven.

No joke man. When things really go, they're going to GO, and it's not going to be pretty. It kinda scares me, no actually it doesn't kinda scare me, it really scares me.

Like WMD wasn't realy the cause for US invasion of Iraq but it served the Bush Administration well as a convienient (and generally unverifiable to the general public) propaganda item to strike fear into US citizens to garner support for a long planned regime change there. All that was needed to get it rolling was a foot in the door. Once the genie gets out there's no putting him back into the bottle. The neocon hawks knew that and wouldn't miss that chance to enact their agenda for the world. They waited 8 years for it already and had to do it while Cheney was still alive and in a position of authority.

Yeah, the recent developments in North Korea are proving that to be true. We invaded Iraq on the SUSPISION that Saddam MIGHT be hiding WMD. He couldn't even have blown himself to hell with the weapons he did have. Meanwhile, North Korea hasn't tried to hide it in the least, in fact just the opposite. They've made sure the rest of the world knows what they're doing. For crying out loud, they just tested missiles capable of intercontinental flight! The missiles failed, but it's no secret what kind of technology they're intent on developing. No declaration of war against North Korea yet. That's probably more like comparing apples to oranges, but it all just smacks of hypocrisy. We'd be better off if our Congressmen just knocked on our front door and pissed on our foot.

[hurley]

found a great video on israel http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...00254881054584

[hlcn8]

The thing is, Lebanon is mainly christian, not muslim. They are arabs surely, but not in the same fashion as heavily dominated muslim nations. Still, they are a weak government newly formed and have just spent trillions of dollars to rebuild after a 15 year civil war. They simply don't have a strong military yet that can root out terrorists. Israel fully knows this but their air attacks are not primarily strategic in the sense that they are targeting simply Hezbollah strongholds or safehouse. They have targeted the Lebanese military bases and airstrips even though the military has not responded to the Israeli invasion. I don't think that they want the Lebanese to have any sort of respectable military because that would hinder Israeli designs on annexing southern Lebanon. Also, Israeli jets/bombers are targeting critical infrastructure that will take more than a decade to rebuild and more trillions of dollars. This is unacceptable and should be raising flags about what their true intentions really are. Israel very well could have approached the Lebanese government and asked to work with them in an effort to oust Hezbollah but they didn't. Why not? The strong Syrian influence was since removed from Lebanese government. Why are urban housing developments getting leveled in Beruit when the Israelis themselves declared that the Hezbollah terrorists were residing in southern Lebanon? Look deeper than the surface on these matters and see what you might learn. It could surprise you.


Almost everywhere except the US and Israel decries these actions but we'd never know it to watch the mainstream media here. Our news is severley slanted towards pro-Israeli actions all of the time. They are always purported to be the good guys, the victims. That is not so. Sometimes they are victims but often times they are the aggressor. There is no balance in our media coverage in that respect...and for a very good reason too.


As for the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, Hezbollah was wrong in their actions to do that but you also must understand their reasoning behind it. There are over 9,000 arab prisoners currently being held in Israeli prisons. Many are Palestinians and many are held without being charged with any crimes. A lot of them were picked up in massive sweeps during the Palestinian uprising but there are likely a large number of innocents jailed as well. Israel gets upset about 3 kidnapped and 8 dead soldiers but they (and the US media) seemingly ignores the fact of the ratio of dead Palestinians to Israelis stands at an average of 8:1. Then of course, 9,000 palestinains held captive versus 3 Israeli soldiers. WOW. People don't realize this and often times have to actually search for such common ommissions from a balanced media report.


Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not defending Hezbollah for their actions here but I can definitely see the reasons behind their motivations. Do you think that bombing Lebanon and killing almost entirely civilians in the process, taking out their civilian housing, destroying their routes to work, their airports and all roads (except one) out of the country will make Israel (and the US by extension) any endearing new friends there in the region or will it create a new surge in anti-western sentiments there? A whole new generation of terrorists will be borne from this recent conflict. Some of which may even kill one of us readers here in future terrorist attack on US soil. Only the US could stop further aggressive and destruction actions by Israel. The rest of the world understands that and sees us sitting back and allowing such atrocities to happen. They'll remember this too.


Israel knew exactly what it was creating with these actions but they have Big Daddy (the US) to defend them at every turn if the going gets rough. It is certainly NOT unreasonable that the Israel wants to draw the US into armed conflict with its adversaries. Like in Iraq, the US can do the heavy lifting for Israel without Israel having to spend any money or lives to accomplish this task. The US is being used in many various ways by Israel and we wouldn't know it gauging by the nightly newscasts. Both sides are at fault in this conflict but Israel is over responding intentionally and for other purposes than what we are told.

Some great truths in there! However I have to disagree w/ several items!
Syrian and Iranian influence is not removed from the southern areas of lebanon. The reason why israel is stating that lebanese forces must control the border areas is because they know that lebanon can't do so without creating the same conditions that led to civil war so long ago. I've had a great deal of experience w/ the middle east conflict, and even lived in Saudi Arabia for almost 5 years. What I found most intriguing is that even KSA stated (admittedly under pressure from the US) that hezbollah needs to return the kidnapped soldiers before any sort of truce/cease fire can be arranged. While KSA is well known as moderates in the area, that they would make a public statement to that effect is pretty powerful. If there were no hezbollah presence in the area the rocket attacks wouldn't be an issue. Similarly, if israel was able to approach lebanon and say they should root out the hezbollah extremists without creating those same circumstances that could lead to another civil war, it would've been done. They risk alienating a significant portion of their population in doing so.
Our news organizations are EXTREMELY pro-israeli, to a point that it's sickening. the destruction of infrastructure that isn't necessarilly tied to the stated aims of this conflict is indeed alarming (israel states that they're trying to eliminate the possibility of the soldiers being ferried away). israel is indeed pursuing other objectives in this situation, and we are DEFINITELY creating a new generation of terrorists w/ the US acceptance of all of these actions. I don't think however that the US will create a military presence in the area, except as UN peace-keepers should israel concede in that respect. The US military is already spread too thin.
Overall i mostly agree w/ you, and it's refreshing that others are as well enlightened on the situation as you are.
I'll tell you what concerns me the most though, from a personal perspective. My former brother-in-law has family in Gaza, and hasn't heard a peep from them since this whole situation began. He doesn't know if they're ok, has no idea what their living conditions are at this point, and he probably won't know for a while. The media attention is now focused on lebanon, and he can't even get decent news coverage.
I guess what i'm saying is I see fault on both sides. Prior to 9-11 the swedish prime minister even went so far as to state that israel are acting like the nazi's they so despise in regards to their behavior in the region and dictatorial attitude. it just seems that more often than not, the muslim populations of this area are shooting themselves in the foot and picking fights they cannot win (hostages). It's frustrating...
For those of you seeking additional information, another great source is the Stratfor report. While it's a subscription site you can usually find their bulletins posted again on the internet. It's a site run by former intelligence operatives and USUALLY (not always) does a great job to describe the situation fairly and from each perspective. Factors that you wouldn't even have thought of are often presented and it's another piece of the puzzle for those of us who aren't sheep in our understanding of world politics. Other than that, watch BBC. News organizations in the US are world reknown for being incomplete and biased.

[redsquirrel]

I want to be able to present effective arguments on all sides to frame in the real underlying issues including the struggle of the Dome of the Rock/al Aqsa mosque presence versus the rebuilding of the third temple of Solomon on the same exact site in Jerusalem. The duality of this holy site to both the jews and the muslims is intriguing, to say the least. It's a religious ideology powder keg waiting to explode. Sooner or later this dilemma will come to a point and there will be no turning back when it finally comes down to which of two jewish schools of thought wins the debate on whether or not the rebuilding should begin to bring about the coming of the messiah. Of course, rebuilding the third temple pf Solomon would need to be preceded by destruction of the third holiest site in Islam triggering a holy war between muslims and jews (perhaps even christians aka the US). The Dome of the Rock is thought by the muslims to have been the exact site where Mohammed ascended directly to heaven. There is so much to it that it might make for a completely seperate book altogether.

Primal- OMG! You know how much I absolutely love your take on things....especially political issues. I've missed you and your wealth of knowledge. But this takes the cake. I am fascinated by the amount of information and you are dead on with most of this.

What I am confused about is this: it was my understanding that the arabs and jews have been fighting over this land all of these years BECAUSE of the Dome and Solomon rebuilding. Muslims claim it to be Holy Land as do the Jews. I thought the whole war over water was more of an afterthought; for lack of a better term.

Another question I have to raise is this: I mean, is it really feasible or even possible for the Jews to entertain the thought of rebuilding this temple? It just seems so far fetched and immediate creation for war from all sides. I understand that what it represents in each culture, and the importance of it. In addition, how would anyone attempt to even build this temple? Wouldn't there be numerous attempts to bomb the construction progress by Muslims? Which I understand would be this powder keg.

What I also don't understand is how the American people can continue to allow themselves to be lied to . This situation, Iraq, N. Korea, etc. It absolutely infuriates me that the US can continue to fund and support Israel while we are being attacked on our own soil as a direct result of this support. I also understand what Isreal represents as whole to the Middles East, the amount of control they have because of the land they possess. But again, then it goes back to the genocide of WWII, and how the Allies vowed that anything like that would never happen again (HMMM....Rwanda, Somalia, etc)

But again, someone has to realize on both sides what this would create. I also understand the religious extremists involved and their claim to the land and what it represents for all. But as irrational as some of these leasers and extremists can be, how can they or why would they basically lay the ground work for what could be the end of the world? That's definitely one way to bring about the coming of the Messiah. I am TERRIFIED of what this conflict could create for the rest of the world. This is absolutely the groundwork for WWIII. Yet it seems Israel seem to push the envelope and what it can get away with each and every day....because of none other than the US to dig them out of trouble.

And not to get all weird and sort of off track, but isn't this all predicted in the NT of the Bible? Arent' there several references to the Holy Land and if it ever comes under fire? And didn't that Nostradamus guy make similar predictions about what would need to take place before the coming of the Messiah/Armageddon? I know 100% of this is religion based, but there has to be some truth and irony in what is currently going on in the middle east right now.

What would happen if the US would cease any more aide to Israel? Would that leave Israel open for several attack from Syria, Iran and the like? Which in turn could lead to more terrorist activity worldwide? I mean, if Israel is no longer protected by the US- so to speak, then what incentive would the resot of the coutries have to not attack them? Those countriws would unite, attack, and take over the land, and the water resource/ So, isn't it more of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for the US?