What the fuck????

[Bouncer]

[QUOTE=Timber;426178]

Actually, no the world has not changed. There have been terrorist since the beginning of time. There has been the threat of danger and attack for nearly 150 years. War, disillusionment, everything has all been there.

I think it was Ben Franklin who said, "Those that would give up freedom in the name of safety deserve neither." Price my fucking ass. When you take away freedoms you take away the very thing you claim to be saving. Its terribly moronic logic.

I guess I just have a different perspective on things than you

umm, that quote from Ben Franklin actually backs NewbieChris's argument more then yours. lol.

[NewbieChris]

First you will think different once you have kids. Also being in another country and having a terrorist attack is not the same as here. We are a giant bulls eye. Some of it is media bull shit, but 9/11 still happened, the bombings in England still happened, so the lack of security and the potential of something happening do not sit well with me.


Do you leave your doors unlocked all the time?

Unless I am gone for extended periods of time, no. In fact I just went shopping this morning and didn't lock my car once and I don't drive a piece of shit, so I would assume that it would be a target for theft. I hope having kids doesn't change my mind. I don't want my kids living in fear, when the statistical possibility of a bombing in America is so low. Lower than a crazy fucking American shooting you, thats for sure. The idea that Al-Qaeda is an enormous threat is so inflated. In your life, statistically, how many times have you heard of an Al-Qaeda attack on American soil? And how many of them were geared on such a small scale as a train bombing? The two I can recall were planned out much more detail than the one train bombing in Britain and Spain.

As for comparing America to East Asian countries...your point is my exact point, but the opposite. If we are such a target, why are we hit less than them? Our being a major enemy has nothing to do with the likely hood that we will be hit. These people are crazy and hate just about every western influence. Especially the western influence that is a shinning gem to their porous rock. Israel is easier to target and closer. Therefore the resources it takes to attack them is easier. I would argue its more difficult and the marginal benefit of a train bombing in the US, or even a European country for that matter, is not worth it to them. That is why they plan huge, elaborate schemes when attacking the US and why we see less suicide bombings in Europe.

The possibility that you will be killed by an Al-Qaeda operative is less than the probability that I will be shot on my schools campus by some unstable individual. And even then, both of those probabilities are small enough that I don't believe we need armed guards at train stations, much like communist and socialist countries have...in the name of 'safety'. It can too easily turn the government authoritarian, IMO.

All of this is, of course, in my opinion.

[Timber]

I think you have to define freedom. I mean you don't have freedom from Law, you don't have freedom from taxes. It isn't like your free to walk the street and do what ever you want. So are any of us really free. So things change, the world changes and laws change and the definition of your freedom changes

[NewbieChris]

Freedoms and freedom from government are two different things. Freedom from government is having the ability to, at any time, change the system. That is what I am talking about. When you start putting armed guards everywhere that becomes very difficult. With the threat of harm, a government can easily convince its people that an Authoritarian government is necessary, but it never is.

[Shibby]

I would have to say Chris is changing my mind a bit. :) I always do like reading your post Chris. But my point about locking doors is that in fact the world does change. Ask your parents how different things were when they were kids. Things change, we have to adapt and a lot of times it sucks.

[Bouncer]

I would have to say Chris is changing my mind a bit. :) I always do like reading your post Chris.

he is pretty smart. usually that is a sign of gayness at his age.

[NewbieChris]

usually that is a sign of gayness at his age.

:rofl::rofl:

[NewbieChris]

But my point about locking doors is that in fact the world does change. Ask your parents how different things were when they were kids. Things change, we have to adapt and a lot of times it sucks.

My point is change is a beautiful thing. It brings about progress, we don't sacrifice our daughters to please the god's any more because of it. Well, normal people don't. Change is not something to be scared of, rather embraced. Sure the world is much more complicated than it was when we were burning wood at night to cook food. Sure things are different from when my Dad was my age, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. When my Dad was a kid we didn't have a cure for polio, or it was rather new(I forget when it was invented). Besides, before my Dad was born the Jews were being slaughtered by a crazy terrorist who instilled fear into his people and told them that the Jews were to blame. The idea that change is scary and bad has been around a long time. The more I read, the more I realize that governments have used the that belief to control populations. I'm sure Goliath would disagree. :P

The idea that Amtrak, or whoever, wants to put these guards at stations, does not make me feel safe. I really don't think the additional restrictions we have put in place in Airports(post 9/11) are that big of a change from before either.

Many would argue the opposite. That the measures we take are completely Constitutional and arguably they are. And no, none of them really infringe highly upon daily life. For the most part airport security has a nice balance. It is enough to stop 99% of things from happening, while hardly changing daily life. The same can be said for domestic wire tapping for international calling and many other Patriot Act institutions, even the national ID system.

To me, that is not the point though. It is the question of when we are willing to let this stop. When do we let fear with and the government to take absolute control. To me, they have crossed the line. Using my logic and empirical evidence I don't think the government needs to do many things it does, but that is why we live in a republic. So we all can decide.

[Shibby]

The way I read this is you only trying to prove your high points. I am not trying to say that all change is bad, but we now have to lock our doors because the world has changed and we have to adapt. In post #12 you said "the world has not changed". Now the world as a global may not be much different {you are obviously much more educated on this (zero sarcasm intended)} but "our" world as America is. So we adapt.

[NewbieChris]

The way I read this is you only trying to prove your high points. I am not trying to say that all change is bad, but we now have to lock our doors because the world has changed and we have to adapt. In post #12 you said "the world has not changed". Now the world as a global may not be much different {you are obviously much more educated on this (zero sarcasm intended)} but "our" world as America is. So we adapt.

I should really learn to express myself better. In terms of humanity the world has not changed. Humans have been doing the same thing over and over again. In terms of technology, the world has changed. Thus the world has changed, but simply due to the fact that we are getting ever better at achieving our goals. Whether they be feeding a continent or killing an entire continent.

My main argument, and I use that word in its true meaning, as a persuasive statement. Not as in 'fighting'. My main point is simply that I believe right now we let media, government, and fear consume us far more than we should. I believe it will lead us down a bad road. Especially with the ever growing threat of radical Christianity and how well they seem to be finding their way into government. When people are afraid, they revert back to the thing that makes them most comfortable. Homo geniality, conformity. People are always more comfortable when they are around others that reflect themselves. That can be a powerful tool for good and bad. That is what I am truly scared of when it comes to putting guns in everyday areas. To me it is a sign that we want uniformity, which in America is much different than any other country. However, it cannot lead anywhere good.

Thats why I freaked out when I read this on Fox News' website.

[Shibby]

Most of the second paragraph I agree with. I am guilty of letting some media and political talk shows form my perception. Some of them have a way of saying some things that make sense. You have explained stuff in a way that makes sense to me, opposite of the media. So at this point seeing guns by professional "protectors" seems harmless in a potentially dangerous situation. I also see your side about not letting the government freely impose themselves on our lives until it's too late.