answersingenesis.org

[Shibby]

my point exactly

So you agree morality doesn't come from religion?

[3v1lj03]

If there is not a higher authority or religion who has the right to say what is good or bad. Therefore what constitutes a "good" person or a "bad" person?

It's called morality and it is whatever is permissible in our society, so in effect it is very fluid, which is why, for example, pornography has become acceptable. Most mature adults don't object to it, provided people are not being exploited to make it. It doesn't mean they condone it, but they will tolerate it, whereas in the 1950's it was taboo. Today it's shown on TV. Besides nothing is inherently good or bad, that is a judgement made by us.

So you agree morality doesn't come from religion?

I figured you would get it. Read the two posts together gdbear makes my point quite nicely. Here is a hint if you get rid of God who will take his place? gdbear knows the answer.

[Shibby]

I read it as society determines right and wrong. That there is no need for god or higher power.

[NewbieChris]

It is absolutely true that religion will make men do things they would not otherwise do. Look what religion and even a specific sect of a religion did on 9/11. But, there are also good things that are done in the name of religion. Read the Mayflower Compact and see why the pilgrims came to the new world. The founding of the United States and the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Right arose from the founders religious beliefs .
I must stress that contrary to popular political correctness that in my world view all religions are not the same. All the religions of the world can be broken down into two categorys. 1) By far the most dangerous and the most prevalent is the idea that Man must do something to redeem himself in the eyes of God or the universe I.E. Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, and Karma itself. The other, one religion believes that Man is incapable of redeeming himself and no matter what he does there is nothing he can do to impress Almighty God. That the only way man can be redeemed is by the work of and sacrifice of a Savior. This is what I refer to as true religion and is the one that none need fear. This religion is not even based on religion and ritual but, on true libertarian freedom and a relationship with the Savior.

Look I do enjoy this kind of discussion but, if you want to get into this stuff in depth you should really go to the theology online BB. This type of thread is common and well discussed. You will find everything from wickens and pagens to every branch of Christians, and atheists you name it you can find them there and most are willing to have intelligent conversations like we have had here. I would urge you to stay away from the open theists as they are senseless in there arguments and when you argue with an idiot it soon becomes hard to tell the difference.

You must be joking me? First off Buddhist beliefs are not in anticipation of redemption. Redemption is almost strictly a phenomenon of Western religions. Also, you went on to say that there are religions that require man to do *something* for redemption. You follow up that statement by say that other religions do no require such an acts of man. How is there no need to fear a religion that requires a 'savior' to perform super human acts and his own sacrifice? In my mind such an idea can be twisted into an idea that we all may be saviors if we 'perform the right task'.

The idea of a true religion has nothing to do with such sacrifices, because he has already made them. Presbyterians have an interesting philosophy. There is nothing, that God himself has not already done (aka given his own son for our sins), that we can do to redeem ourselves of sin. Thus there is NOTHING you can do, nothing outside of Gods power can change anything. Thus, the reason for our actions should not be to promote anything for ourselves, but to do things simply because they are asked of us. Because regardless of what we do, God will love us. Even that idea can be frightening because that means the child molester will sit next to you in heaven.


Finally, people seem to forget the revolution in this country was thrown because of the bank of England and its tax policies.

[3v1lj03]

You must be joking me? First off Buddhist beliefs are not in anticipation of redemption. Redemption is almost strictly a phenomenon of Western religions. Also, you went on to say that there are religions that require man to do *something* for redemption. You follow up that statement by say that other religions do no require such an acts of man. How is there no need to fear a religion that requires a 'savior' to perform super human acts and his own sacrifice? In my mind such an idea can be twisted into an idea that we all may be saviors if we 'perform the right task'.

The idea of a true religion has nothing to do with such sacrifices, because he has already made them. Presbyterians have an interesting philosophy. There is nothing, that God himself has not already done (aka given his own son for our sins), that we can do to redeem ourselves of sin. Thus there is NOTHING you can do, nothing outside of Gods power can change anything. Thus, the reason for our actions should not be to promote anything for ourselves, but to do things simply because they are asked of us. Because regardless of what we do, God will love us. Even that idea can be frightening because that means the child molester will sit next to you in heaven.


Finally, people seem to forget the revolution in this country was thrown because of the bank of England and its tax policies.

First of all you obviously don't actually read anything I write. The first point you try to make that is even close to answering anything I have written is the same thing I said. It is absolutely true that if a child molester repents (DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS) and accepts Jesus Christ he will be in heaven. There is only one sin unto death or one unforgivable sin.

I don't know what liberal revisionist history you have learned but it is NOT the history of these United States. You are so far off base again that I am not convinced that even if I break down the Declaration of Independence and the writings of the founders for you will be able to see that facts because your head is so filled with humanistic ideals and revisionist history that you cannot be saved from yourself. I can’t decide whether to put you on my ignore list or beat my head against the wall of your arrogance and ignorance.

[NewbieChris]

First of all you obviously don't actually read anything I write. The first point you try to make that is even close to answering anything I have written is the same thing I said. It is absolutely true that if a child molester repents (DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS) and accepts Jesus Christ he will be in heaven. There is only one sin unto death or one unforgivable sin.

I don't know what liberal revisionist history you have learned but it is NOT the history of these United States. You are so far off base again that I am not convinced that even if I break down the Declaration of Independence and the writings of the founders for you will be able to see that facts because your head is so filled with humanistic ideals and revisionist history that you cannot be saved from yourself. I can’t decide whether to put you on my ignore list or beat my head against the wall of your arrogance and ignorance.

Have you ever read anything by people like Benjamin Franklin? I highly doubt it. It is people like you that ruin this country. The reason the pilgrams came to North America was for religious freedom, the reason we revolted and founded our own nation was because of MONEY. I'm sure I could provide all the links in the world, but it would not convince you of that. Not to mention you are correct, religion influences what people write, duh!

However, and correct me if I am wrong, the writers of the Constitution and Declaration made it a point to not quote a specific God. That God has bestowed upon us the things STATED in the declaration of Independence and Constitution, nothing more, nothing less. Of course religion influenced them. Times were different 300 years ago. However, today things are different. We were left with a fluid document that is supposed to change with time. The idea of the CONSTITUTION is fluidity and the ability to change. That is the reason you can amend the it. These men clearly understood the idea of religion is as fluid as time.

Now, on to your first point. I don't know how my point that Buddhism isn't about redemption or penance is the same point you made, because you listed it as a religion that requires you to ingratiate yourself upon a God through actions. Or that Karma is just the same as a religion that requires you to 'repent for your sins'. I certainly did NOT say that. They are far more complex than breaking them down to something so simple and ignorant.

And you missed what I said, Presbyterians don't have to repent for sin, because we live in sin. The state of humanity is sin in their eyes. There is nothing you can do, EVEN PENANCE! Thus, nothing, even feeling bad about what you do is cause enough to go to heaven. You simply go because God wishes you to.

You are saying there is still action that must be taken. That, sacrifice is necessary, from a Savior. You never specifically said Jesus, or God himself. There are men that consider themselves saviors today, btw. Keeping in mind that there is a President that believe that God has spoken to him and commanded him to bring 'freedom' to the middle east. How do you feel about that notion?

I'd be curious to know...do you know the origin of Western (that includes Muslim and Islam) religions?

[FitnessBrat]

It's called morality and it is whatever is permissible in our society, so in effect it is very fluid, which is why, for example, pornography has become acceptable. Most mature adults don't object to it, provided people are not being exploited to make it. It doesn't mean they condone it, but they will tolerate it, whereas in the 1950's it was taboo. Today it's shown on TV. Besides nothing is inherently good or bad, that is a judgement made by us.

Happy Birthday gdbear65 :party:

[3v1lj03]

Have you ever read anything by people like Benjamin Franklin? I highly doubt it. It is people like you that ruin this country. The reason the pilgrams came to North America was for religious freedom, the reason we revolted and founded our own nation was because of MONEY. I'm sure I could provide all the links in the world, but it would not convince you of that. Not to mention you are correct, religion influences what people write, duh!

This statement shows your absolute elitist altitude. It is people like me that built this country you snob. I have read your posts on this forum and I know what kind of a whining panny waste you are! Don't come at me with your I am better then you crap. When you have lived a couple more decades and finally moved out of your mothers house then maybe you will have a right to tell me what kind of person I am.
I have read many early works of the founders including Franklin. I would advise you to stop getting your information from the WWW and visit the Library of Congress. Perhaps when you read the founders words themselves and not someone else's version of them you may discover the truth. All 13 of the original states required that you be a Christian and 10 require specifically a Protestant Christian to hold any office.

However, and correct me if I am wrong, the writers of the Constitution and Declaration made it a point to not quote a specific God. That God has bestowed upon us the things STATED in the declaration of Independence and Constitution, nothing more, nothing less. Of course religion influenced them. Times were different 300 years ago. However, today things are different. We were left with a fluid document that is supposed to change with time. The idea of the CONSTITUTION is fluidity and the ability to change. That is the reason you can amend the it. These men clearly understood the idea of religion is as fluid as time.

Again this shows your ignorance John Q Adams said the that the Constitution and the Christian religion were inseparably linked. His father John also made similar statements. STOP READING YOUR REVISIONIST HISTORY BOOKS. I think this points to a specific God.
The Constitution was never meant to be a fluid document that way of thinking only started in the 1940s by activist judges. And in addition I think you should read G Washington's farewell address. See what the "Father" of our nation has to say about a specific God.

Now, on to your first point. I don't know how my point that Buddhism isn't about redemption or penance is the same point you made, because you listed it as a religion that requires you to ingratiate yourself upon a God through actions. Or that Karma is just the same as a religion that requires you to 'repent for your sins'. I certainly did NOT say that. They are far more complex than breaking them down to something so simple and ignorant.

OK, I think you may just misunderstand what I am trying to convey. I suppose that I should have said the universe or the quest to attain nothingness. But, still it is a man centered quest you must do it. Karma is much the same you need to be nice or Karma is gonna get you.

And you missed what I said, Presbyterians don't have to repent for sin, because we live in sin. The state of humanity is sin in their eyes. There is nothing you can do, EVEN PENANCE! Thus, nothing, even feeling bad about what you do is cause enough to go to heaven. You simply go because God wishes you to.

I think that if this is really what Presbyterians believe you need to read your Bible. That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do agree that none are worthy and if you are not elect by God you will not go to heaven. However, I also believe the God is not willing that any should perish and that all men are given light. I do not believe in penance I believe in repentance not the same thing look it up.

You are saying there is still action that must be taken. That, sacrifice is necessary, from a Savior. You never specifically said Jesus, or God himself. There are men thatconsider themselves saviors today, btw. Keeping in mind that there is a President that believe that God has spoken to him and commanded him to bring 'freedom' to the middle east. How do you feel about that notion?

Jesus Christ paid the debt for all sin on the cross and through his suffering. All that is required for salvation is that you accept the gift he offers you by repenting of your sins and committing your life to his will. He will heal you of all brokenness if you only believe on Him. I cannot say if God told G.W. to free the middle east or not. I can tell you that my God speaks to me daily though His Spirit. If your God does not communicate with you I submit he is a fake.

I'd be curious to know...do you know the origin of Western (that includes Muslim and Islam) religions?

I do and it does not include Islam

Man my head hurts already.

Hey, Shibby sorry to have allowed this thread to get hijacked but, I let this guy off the hook once before and I could not allow it to go unanswered again. I will try to get back on track.

[3v1lj03]

I read it as society determines right and wrong. That there is no need for god or higher power.

OK, lets say you are successful at eliminating God and religion. What will be the result of this Godless society?

[NewbieChris]

This statement shows your absolute elitist altitude. It is people like me that built this country you snob. I have read your posts on this forum and I know what kind of a whining panny waste you are! Don't come at me with your I am better then you crap. When you have lived a couple more decades and finally moved out of your mothers house then maybe you will have a right to tell me what kind of person I am.
I have read many early works of the founders including Franklin. I would advise you to stop getting your information from the WWW and visit the Library of Congress. Perhaps when you read the founders words themselves and not someone else's version of them you may discover the truth. All 13 of the original states required that you be a Christian and 10 require specifically a Protestant Christian to hold any office.



Again this shows your ignorance John Q Adams said the that the Constitution and the Christian religion were inseparably linked. His father John also made similar statements. STOP READING YOUR REVISIONIST HISTORY BOOKS. I think this points to a specific God.
The Constitution was never meant to be a fluid document that way of thinking only started in the 1940s by activist judges. And in addition I think you should read G Washington's farewell address. See what the "Father" of our nation has to say about a specific God.

I'm mildly curious why the creators of the Constitution included a clause for amendments if the document was not meant to be fluid. Please, enlighten us all. Tell us what YOU were told by Franklin, Adams and the like.

Why would you add a clause stating:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

OK, I think you may just misunderstand what I am trying to convey. I suppose that I should have said the universe or the quest to attain nothingness. But, still it is a man centered quest you must do it. Karma is much the same you need to be nice or Karma is gonna get you.

Buddhism is not a man centered quest.

I think that if this is really what Presbyterians believe you need to read your Bible. That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do agree that none are worthy and if you are not elect by God you will not go to heaven. However, I also believe the God is not willing that any should perish and that all men are given light. I do not believe in penance I believe in repentance not the same thing look it up.




Jesus Christ paid the debt for all sin on the cross and through his suffering. All that is required for salvation is that you accept the gift he offers you by repenting of your sins and committing your life to his will. He will heal you of all brokenness if you only believe on Him. I cannot say if God told G.W. to free the middle east or not. I can tell you that my God speaks to me daily though His Spirit. If your God does not communicate with you I submit he is a fake.

I submit to you, that God does not tell one to bring freedom or speak directly to you, commanding you do perform a certain action. God does not need to 'communicate' with us. We are, simply because he desires us to be. Thus, we are already one. Why must he communicate with you on a daily basis? Does God command you to perform certain specific actions when he communicates with you?

Who is to say that the will of Jesus Christ cannot be interpreted be used in the same way some use other religions? Was it not God's will that we spread his belief system and encourage others to follow in his foot steps? I might be wrong, haven't read that Bible thing in a while. He does not state means as to these results either.

The think and thin of my point is this. To say that one you can relieve Christianity of some blame for actions of crazies is false. People have used to, and arguably, not abused it and those actions have resulted in the same type of events that we see coming from Islam today.

Penance and repentance are essentially the same thing to people outside of Jewish / Christian belief systems. Both call for forgiveness and sorrow. Penance usually require additional action.

I do and it does not include Islam

So, sons of Ishmael are not sons of Abraham? Okay. Wong?!

[Shibby]

OK, lets say you are successful at eliminating God and religion. What will be the result of this Godless society?

A society of atheists.

[Shibby]

What is your take on Christianity in relation to gods and goddess during and before the Roman Empire?

[gdbear65]

Happy Birthday gdbear65 :party:

Thanks!! Numero 43, but I feel like I'm 25, so I now tell everyone I'm 25 with 18 years experience. :D

[3v1lj03]

A society of atheists.

Ok, so tell me about this society of atheists. How will it manifest itself. By what authority will the government rule.

[Shibby]

Ok, so tell me about this society of atheists. How will it manifest itself. By what authority will the government rule.

lol, By the authority they should rule. Not influenced by religion. I know to you the word "atheist" has a negative connotation to it and tends to be a scary word to theologists. The fact is, that good atheist are just good people by choice. So why should we assume that without religion all the good people would turn bad? That's the way you make it sound.