answersingenesis.org

[Shibby]

Oh, this isn't really relevant other than we were laughing at the Vatican earlier, but Bill Maher is doing a segment called Exit Strategy on Real Time. Anyways, this week they were showcasing Italy and this was part of it

"Italy! Home to 60 million people, all of whom live with their mother. And of course, the eternal city, Rome...where a religion based on a homeless man is run by a guy in a castle."

[NewbieChris]

By what authority will the government rule.

By what authority does the current government rule?

It is the closed mindedness of people like you that really pulls my chain. The idea that what you have taken away from documents written hundreds of years ago by people who were fighting to free themselves of a government that was over stepping the rights of the people. Now you want the same thing, but you want the rights YOU believe we should have, not the rights the people agree to.

[gdbear65]

Ok, so tell me about this society of atheists. How will it manifest itself. By what authority will the government rule.

By what authority do gov'ts rule today? The Law.

A society of atheists would embrace the Ethic of Reciprocity, not just give it lip service. Why? Because atheists would use reason and logically the only practical and equitable way of interacting harmoniously and furthering our development as a civil, humane society is to treat others (including animals, in a limited fashion) as you expect to be treated. Sadly this will never come to pass - we have 5000 years of wars as evidence of man's inhumanity.

[3v1lj03]

I'm mildly curious why the creators of the Constitution included a clause for amendments if the document was not meant to be fluid. Please, enlighten us all. Tell us what YOU were told by Franklin, Adams and the like.

Why would you add a clause stating:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

Boy I can tell you are really pissy now. I am not sure where you get the idea that reading the original writings and letters of the founders means that I somehow can commune with the founding fathers. I mean these documents are available to anybody who has an interest and can read.

Fluid Document? no it is not. The amendment process is a way to change the Constitution that was set out by the writers and signers. The Constitution is referred to as a Fluid document only by liberal elitists who don't want to use the amendment process but, desire tyrants in black robes to make up or strike down laws without regard to the Constitution, precedent or the will of the people.

What does the first amendment mean? I am sure I know what you think it means. I do know exactly what it means because I know what it meant to Madison. Did he tell me? Well if reading what he wrote with pen and parchment counts then yes he told me. Madison's original proposal stated: "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretest, infringed."
I don't think you have read Washington's farewell address yet so you do that and I will finish this answer.

Buddhism is not a man centered quest.

There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment, according to the ability and capacity of each individual: namely as a disciple (sraavaka), as a Pratyeka-Buddha and as a Samyak-sam-Buddha (perfectly and Fully Enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a Samyak-sam-Buddha in order to save others. These are all things you must do.

I submit to you, that God does not tell one to bring freedom or speak directly to you, commanding you do perform a certain action. God does not need to 'communicate' with us. We are, simply because he desires us to be. Thus, we are already one. Why must he communicate with you on a daily basis? Does God command you to perform certain specific actions when he communicates with you?

Perhaps that first part is true of your god. My God is obviously not the same one you "worship" . The Holy Spirit communes with my spirit perhaps you have heard of "the still small voice" this is how it is if I am not obsessed with myself and I am listening it is a continuous conversation. Though I don't really know how to put into words. I do speak out loud at times and I do feel the answer that is given.
John 10 4
When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

I do wish you could experience it.


1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Who is to say that the will of Jesus Christ cannot be interpreted be used in the same way some use other religions? Was it not God's will that we spread his belief system and encourage others to follow in his foot steps? I might be wrong, haven't read that Bible thing in a while. He does not state means as to these results either.

You make me sad. I have heard you profess your piety on this forum and yet you now confess you "haven't read that Bible thing in a while" Jesus did tell us how to spread the Good News as did Paul. Again I am not going to spoon feed you here you will need to read something.

The think and thin of my point is this. To say that one you can relieve Christianity of some blame for actions of crazies is false. People have used to, and arguably, not abused it and those actions have resulted in the same type of events that we see coming from Islam today.

People can pervert anything. I don't think I have ever tried to defend the position you are accusing me of here. I do think the inquisitions were extremely misguided but, then they arose from a corrupt church/state didn't they. Which I think I have addressed

Penance and repentance are essentially the same thing to people outside of Jewish / Christian belief systems. Both call for forgiveness and sorrow. Penance usually require additional action.

Well, I guess this one does not apply to me.

So, sons of Ishmael are not sons of Abraham? Okay. Wong?!

You know they are. But they are in no way considered 'Western" and BTW who is Wong?I don't think I know him.

[3v1lj03]

Oh, this isn't really relevant other than we were laughing at the Vatican earlier, but Bill Maher is doing a segment called Exit Strategy on Real Time. Anyways, this week they were showcasing Italy and this was part of it

"Italy! Home to 60 million people, all of whom live with their mother. And of course, the eternal city, Rome...where a religion based on a homeless man is run by a guy in a castle."

:rofl: that is funny

[3v1lj03]

By what authority do gov'ts rule today? The Law.

A society of atheists would embrace the Ethic of Reciprocity, not just give it lip service. Why? Because atheists would use reason and logically the only practical and equitable way of interacting harmoniously and furthering our development as a civil, humane society is to treat others (including animals, in a limited fashion) as you expect to be treated. Sadly this will never come to pass - we have 5000 years of wars as evidence of man's inhumanity.

The first part is pie in the sky you need only look at recent history to see the path Godless societys take. The last sentence is exactly how your society will begin and end. IF there is no God or higher power who will become God. Man will be god and we all know of man's "inhumanity" the one thing man is good at is destroying man.

[3v1lj03]

By what authority does the current government rule?

It is the closed mindedness of people like you that really pulls my chain. The idea that what you have taken away from documents written hundreds of years ago by people who were fighting to free themselves of a government that was over stepping the rights of the people. Now you want the same thing, but you want the rights YOU believe we should have, not the rights the people agree to.

You little twit.
THIS GOVERNMENT is overstepping the rights of the people!
I want the rights that the Constitution guarantees me. NOT the rights that some government jack booted thug in a black robe says I can have. I want the right to LIFE, LIBERTY and THE PURSUIT of HAPPINESS.

[Shibby]

The first part is pie in the sky you need only look at recent history to see the path Godless societys take.

Umm, Bush. Need I say more?

[NewbieChris]

Boy I can tell you are really pissy now. I am not sure where you get the idea that reading the original writings and letters of the founders means that I somehow can commune with the founding fathers. I mean these documents are available to anybody who has an interest and can read.

Fluid Document? no it is not. The amendment process is a way to change the Constitution that was set out by the writers and signers. The Constitution is referred to as a Fluid document only by liberal elitists who don't want to use the amendment process but, desire tyrants in black robes to make up or strike down laws without regard to the Constitution, precedent or the will of the people.

What does the first amendment mean? I am sure I know what you think it means. I do know exactly what it means because I know what it meant to Madison. Did he tell me? Well if reading what he wrote with pen and parchment counts then yes he told me. Madison's original proposal stated: "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretest, infringed."
I don't think you have read Washington's farewell address yet so you do that and I will finish this answer.

So, let me ask you this...because I may have misjudged you. How do you determine religious belief, civil right, or equal rights of conscience?

There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment, according to the ability and capacity of each individual: namely as a disciple (sraavaka), as a Pratyeka-Buddha and as a Samyak-sam-Buddha (perfectly and Fully Enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a Samyak-sam-Buddha in order to save others. These are all things you must do.



Perhaps that first part is true of your god. My God is obviously not the same one you "worship" . The Holy Spirit communes with my spirit perhaps you have heard of "the still small voice" this is how it is if I am not obsessed with myself and I am listening it is a continuous conversation. Though I don't really know how to put into words. I do speak out loud at times and I do feel the answer that is given.
John 10 4
When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

I do wish you could experience it.


1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.



You make me sad. I have heard you profess your piety on this forum and yet you now confess you "haven't read that Bible thing in a while" Jesus did tell us how to spread the Good News as did Paul. Again I am not going to spoon feed you here you will need to read something.

Sarcasm escapes you, doesn't it? Do you care to quote the entire passage of John and not take a single line as its whole meaning? I was stating that God does not command me to preform specific actions. That we are one through his spirit. John 10 completely states that we will know God through his spirit and love. I am a little rusty(I haven't been to Bible study since August), but if I recall correctly that is what the meaning is, not that he will commune with us and command us.

As for my point, it is exactly what I stated above. That there is a difference between God communing with you and God commanding you to do something. People who profess that they communicate with God, and that they are commanded by God to performs acts is rare and people use that just as damagingly as other religions. So, I don't see how having a savior eliminates that?

People can pervert anything. I don't think I have ever tried to defend the position you are accusing me of here. I do think the inquisitions were extremely misguided but, then they arose from a corrupt church/state didn't they. Which I think I have addressed

I was not accusing you. My statement was illustrated to demonstrate, that even with the religion you believe in has been the cause of the same number of atrocities that others have. Both, and I think we agree on this, were misinterpretations of, at least, Christianity. I also believe that Islamic fundamentalists are equally dangerous to Christian fundamentalists that twist the religion of God to meet their needs.

In reference to my devotion, it may differ from yours. That does not make it less. The worst part is I have met people like you that say things like, "I feel sorry for you if you haven't felt the spirit of God." To be quite honest if you feel that one person feels Gods love and that God shuns others or doesn't feel they are worthy of him, I think you misunderstand the interpretations of the men whom God actually communicated with. God loves all his children. We don't do things because we are expected to. We should do them because it is simply asked of us., not to be accepted by God. However, you will say that is a twisted liberal view of the Bible, I'm sure. Even though, it has been translated numerous times and that we don't have the entire book.

You know they are. But they are in no way considered 'Western" and BTW who is Wong?I don't think I know him.

The sons of Abraham are not part of Western religion? This is something I completely don't understand. The routes of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all based in Eastern Europe. I shouldn't have said 'Western' religions as that is not the politically correct term, seeing as western religions want to purge themselves of their origins. I often forget that.

[NewbieChris]

You little twit.
THIS GOVERNMENT is overstepping the rights of the people!
I want the rights that the Constitution guarantees me. NOT the rights that some government jack booted thug in a black robe says I can have. I want the right to LIFE, LIBERTY and THE PURSUIT of HAPPINESS.

Haha, I think I hit a nerve. So Christian of you. I forgot, as long as you feel sorry for that, its okay, right?

So, please share with us. What did the founders mean by those rights? What is meant by liberty? What does it encompass? The thing about this is, people like you want to take away peoples choices BECAUSE of these statements. At one point in time these rights were not even guaranteed to person. So, at what point and to whom do these rights pertain in your eyes?

[NewbieChris]

The first part is pie in the sky you need only look at recent history to see the path Godless societys take. The last sentence is exactly how your society will begin and end. IF there is no God or higher power who will become God. Man will be god and we all know of man's "inhumanity" the one thing man is good at is destroying man.

Yet in so many cases the reason for mans inhumanity towards other men is because of God. World War II, Crusades, Inquisition, 9/11, current situation in Middle Eastern countries...

[Shibby]

The first part is pie in the sky you need only look at recent history to see the path Godless societys take. The last sentence is exactly how your society will begin and end. IF there is no God or higher power who will become God. Man will be god and we all know of man's "inhumanity" the one thing man is good at is destroying man.

Actually I would like to know more of what you are referencing as a godless society.

[3v1lj03]

I am done guy's I don't come to this forum for this kind of thing. I come here for a break from this stuff. I have made the points I am interested in making. I recommend all of you go to a forum where these subjects are the issue that is discussed and once you are up to speed have at it. Shibby thanks for the respectful conversation.

[gdbear65]

The first part is pie in the sky you need only look at recent history to see the path Godless societys take. The last sentence is exactly how your society will begin and end. IF there is no God or higher power who will become God. Man will be god and we all know of man's "inhumanity" the one thing man is good at is destroying man.

To which Godless society are you referring? Seems to me all the conflicts in recent history are between devout peoples.

Yeah it might be pie in the sky stuff, but religion is divisive and exclusionary and is most responsible for the ignorance of man. I'd gladly take a Godless society (hello Buddhism) over your God revering society any day. I know there are good people of all faiths, but there are just too damn many hippocrites stirring up shit for my tastes. The day they abolish organized religion would be a happy day indeed.

[FitnessBrat]

To which Godless society are you referring? Seems to me all the conflicts in recent history are between devout peoples.

Yeah it might be pie in the sky stuff, but religion is divisive and exclusionary and is most responsible for the ignorance of man. I'd gladly take a Godless society (hello Buddhism) over your God revering society any day. I know there are good people of all faiths, but there are just too damn many hippocrites stirring up shit for my tastes. The day they abolish organized religion would be a happy day indeed.

wow, where is that clapping smiley!