Something strange has happened in America in the nine months since Barack Obama was e

[NewbieChris]

Are you saying that we need to embrace communism or at least socialism? If not please talk down to me so I can understand what you are saying.

No, I am saying we hold beliefs that are commonly, IMO, beliefs of communism and socialism. We don't believe in letting others suffer, we don't believe in letting people die in the streets due to illness. We get upset when these things happen in other countries. My exact point is that we embrace these socialist beliefs, but politicians use fear mongering. They tell us to fear 'communism and socialism' and that every step we take that brings us closer to an ultimate polar 'ism' will destroy our country, so long as it isn't capitalism. When, basically, that isn't (a) a reality or (b) a simple truth because they are manipulating what is occuring and what words are quoted. We are being toyed with.

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Art of War, to address your point

Look at the way it's typed "We this and that" it's all about US like he isn't part of society, better than it even. I dunno if he tries to be like that or wtf man.

.

When someone says "we" it usually emcompasses ones self and others. To address your second point, I have suggested the solution. Shifting the thought pattern of what is success in this country is a huge solution. Instead of telling people and truely idolizing people who have money (you can argue this isn't true on a larger average than not) we idolize people like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, or people who went to the coastal region of Lousiana, Texas in the aftermath of Katrina.

We are constantly obsessed with those who have money and are famous for rather tedeous things. We, and I include myself in this, idolize the wrong people and the wrong ideals on a shallow level. We generally care about others, but are too shallow to often do things about it.

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Red, not all the worlds problems are making a payment on your house. For example having no health care, something I lost when I lost my job. Pay for my own now, not with my fathers money, but with the money I earn. It is equally condecending for all of you to judge me because I have had opportunities that others have not. How many of you spend summers working with Habitat for Humanity, going into the city and volunteering at community centers, gone to Africa to build homes for people in countries with unstable governments. I have a car payment and have had them before. I have bought my own cars, paid my own insurance, and apartments. Maybe for not the sustainable period you have, because they were for internships (apartments).

Personally, I was not putting a right or wrong on what Obama is doing. I think its great he wants everyone to have healthcare, and the majority of people do too. However, politicians toy with your emotions, complain about the cost, talke about rationing care. Those things scare decent working citizens. They make us fear an 'ism' that has been demonized, when we generally embrace certain portions of that 'ism'. Life has more blurred lines. So, if you want to compare life experiences I will be happy to, but my fathers/mothers money has nothing to do with it.

[redsquirrel]

And furthermore- phenomenal article.

Republicans are freaking MASTERS at creating illusions. They CREATE the news by submitting it to Fox News, which has already admitted they are there for entertainment purposes- not for actually reporting the news. They are masters at telling people what they should think. Anyone read the book 1984?

Secondly, Republicans are also masterfully telling all of us how much this is going to cost. What about the $915 billion wars have costed this country since 2001? www.costofwars.com. Republicans will tell you that the cost of keeping American lives was worth the cost of the war. Safety, once removed- the healthcare plan costs HALF of the war, and actually saves lives.

[redsquirrel]

However, politicians toy with your emotions, complain about the cost, talke about rationing care. Those things scare decent working citizens. They make us fear an 'ism' that has been demonized, when we generally embrace certain portions of that 'ism'. .

Fantastically put. Let's take it a step further, and say that Republicans are the ones most to blame for toying w/ our emotions & complaining about the cost.

If our healthcare system doesn't need an overhaul and offers great care, can someone explain to me why we are ranked 53rd in the world for quality of care? Yep- we are right below Costa Rica, and right above Slovakia....:wack:

[the art of war]

No, I am saying we hold beliefs that are commonly, IMO, beliefs of communism and socialism. We don't believe in letting others suffer, we don't believe in letting people die in the streets due to illness. We get upset when these things happen in other countries. My exact point is that we embrace these socialist beliefs, but politicians use fear mongering. They tell us to fear 'communism and socialism' and that every step we take that brings us closer to an ultimate polar 'ism' will destroy our country, so long as it isn't capitalism. When, basically, that isn't (a) a reality or (b) a simple truth because they are manipulating what is occuring and what words are quoted. We are being toyed with.

----------

Art of War, to address your point
.

When someone says "we" it usually emcompasses ones self and others. To address your second point, I have suggested the solution. Shifting the thought pattern of what is success in this country is a huge solution. Instead of telling people and truely idolizing people who have money (you can argue this isn't true on a larger average than not) we idolize people like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, or people who went to the coastal region of Lousiana, Texas in the aftermath of Katrina.

We are constantly obsessed with those who have money and are famous for rather tedeous things. We, and I include myself in this, idolize the wrong people and the wrong ideals on a shallow level. We generally care about others, but are too shallow to often do things about it.

-------
Red, not all the worlds problems are making a payment on your house. For example having no health care, something I lost when I lost my job. Pay for my own now, not with my fathers money, but with the money I earn. It is equally condecending for all of you to judge me because I have had opportunities that others have not. How many of you spend summers working with Habitat for Humanity, going into the city and volunteering at community centers, gone to Africa to build homes for people in countries with unstable governments. I have a car payment and have had them before. I have bought my own cars, paid my own insurance, and apartments. Maybe for not the sustainable period you have, because they were for internships (apartments).

Personally, I was not putting a right or wrong on what Obama is doing. I think its great he wants everyone to have healthcare, and the majority of people do too. However, politicians toy with your emotions, complain about the cost, talke about rationing care. Those things scare decent working citizens. They make us fear an 'ism' that has been demonized, when we generally embrace certain portions of that 'ism'. Life has more blurred lines. So, if you want to compare life experiences I will be happy to, but my fathers/mothers money has nothing to do with it.

Who employs you right now Chris?

[NewbieChris]

Republicans are freaking MASTERS at creating illusions. They CREATE the news by submitting it to Fox News, which has already admitted they are there for entertainment purposes- not for actually reporting the news. They are masters at telling people what they should think. Anyone read the book 1984?

Secondly, Republicans are also masterfully telling all of us how much this is going to cost. What about the $915 billion wars have costed this country since 2001? www.costofwars.com. Republicans will tell you that the cost of keeping American lives was worth the cost of the war. Safety, once removed- the healthcare plan costs HALF of the war, and actually saves lives.

That is what I said, without pointing the finger at a party or quoting specific dollar amounts. Add into that a suggestion that we should ingrain in our future generations that it is better to help your neighbor than buy a plasma and, boom...you agree with what I said.

[NewbieChris]

Fantastically put. Let's take it a step further, and say that Republicans are the ones most to blame for toying w/ our emotions & complaining about the cost.

If our healthcare system doesn't need an overhaul and offers great care, can someone explain to me why we are ranked 53rd in the world for quality of care? Yep- we are right below Costa Rica, and right above Slovakia....:wack:

No, republicans are better at it than Democrats. I firmly believe that people need to stop blaming a political party (its citizen members become the enemy). You must blame politicians as they are the route cause of most peoples quarles with the opposite party. We often forget that a Republican and Democrat IN AMERICA in an overwhelming majority feel very similar on issues regard how to treat people on the fringe act.

[NewbieChris]

Who employs you right now Chris?

My father @ 7.50 / hr carrying beans and othe misc. manual labor
A gym in Malvern PA whose name will remain undisclosed
And the YMCA

I work 60-70 hr a week.

How about you?

I think its fair that you have the idea that because someone works for their parent and have been fortunate that they would continue to take advantage of that, but that is not me.

[redsquirrel]

That is what I said, without pointing the finger at a party or quoting specific dollar amounts. Add into that a suggestion that we should ingrain in our future generations that it is better to help your neighbor than buy a plasma and, boom...you agree with what I said.

NO, that's actually not the case. I don't believe in this Utopian society picture that you seem to be painting. You're talking about MAKING people care about one another. Family values & environments impact that- not the government. You have to be able to decipher the two- oh wait- I forgot Republicans already use their government position to try and enforce what my family values should be.

The reason America has become a powerhouse is because of our capitalistic society. So, while it is always good to give back to mankind, that would have to be an actual fundamental change someone has to make within themselves. The gratification and satisfaction that comes from bettering someone else's life is not something anyone can force upon you.

This conversation is turning into dribble again- this doesn't address the CLEAR line the defines each party, and the motivations behind what they do.

[redsquirrel]

You must blame politicians as they are the route cause of most peoples quarles with the opposite party.

You mean "root", right?

I blame Republicans for sending and PAYING representatives to travel from town hall to town hall who show up and tell lies, and use scare tactics. Just like that article said- the Republican party bases it's following strictly on FAITH.

Faith- that a death panel would be created
Faith- that my employer would drop my insurance
Faith- that I will have to wait 6 months to receive care.

I'm sorry, I don't remember the Dems doing that when Georgie was lobbying to go to war w/ Iraq.

[redsquirrel]

When the election was happening, everyone was begging for change. Well, that's all that's happened since February- now everyone is scared to death of change. 8 years of getting pushed around by Bush, and people revert back to their old line of thinking. What amuses me the most is people who say they care about America, but truly don't give a damn about Americans.

[NewbieChris]

NO, that's actually not the case. I don't believe in this Utopian society picture that you seem to be painting. You're talking about MAKING people care about one another. Family values & environments impact that- not the government. You have to be able to decipher the two- oh wait- I forgot Republicans already use their government position to try and enforce what my family values should be.

The reason America has become a powerhouse is because of our capitalistic society. So, while it is always good to give back to mankind, that would have to be an actual fundamental change someone has to make within themselves. The gratification and satisfaction that comes from bettering someone else's life is not something anyone can force upon you.

This conversation is turning into dribble again- this doesn't address the CLEAR line the defines each party, and the motivations behind what they do.

Capitalist society? Our Union power that drove the 50-60's? Or better yet, the government sponsored programs that YOU believe in like CARS and health care for all. These are not purely capitalist ideals. Oh, wait.

I am not saying, do away with Capitalism. However, that is what Obama is poising himself to say.

You want to know the difference between democrats and republicans, American citizens that identify with those parties? Politicians, that is what!

I'm not going to argue with you about parties. I think you are sadly stuck in a world where party affiliation means something about the type of person you are. It means absolutely nothing. I know as many democrats that don't like taxes as I do Republicans. I know equal amouts of Republicans and Deomcrats that are Christians.

There will never be a utopian society, but until we strive for things that are better than the status quo, we will never get close. There is nothing utopian about idealizing someone who does good over someone who throws a football around a field and sicks dogs on one another. That does not replace capitalism and it does not replace all the ills of the world.

[NewbieChris]

You mean "root", right?

I blame Republicans for sending and PAYING representatives to travel from town hall to town hall who show up and tell lies, and use scare tactics. Just like that article said- the Republican party bases it's following strictly on FAITH.

Faith- that a death panel would be created
Faith- that my employer would drop my insurance
Faith- that I will have to wait 6 months to receive care.

I'm sorry, I don't remember the Dems doing that when Georgie was lobbying to go to war w/ Iraq.

Forcing faith on others is wrong. Never have I advocated that, do I believe people should have more faith, yes. HOWEVER, that is different from the government forcing beliefs on people, something I fight against. I don't seem to understand what this has to do with anything, other than for you to bash Republicans. Many Republicans do no base what they believe in faith: My family bases their Republican ideals on one thing: MONEY.

[NewbieChris]

When the election was happening, everyone was begging for change. Well, that's all that's happened since February- now everyone is scared to death of change. 8 years of getting pushed around by Bush, and people revert back to their old line of thinking. What amuses me the most is people who say they care about America, but truly don't give a damn about Americans.

First off, not everyone was screaming for change. The liberal and youth were. When pushed out of a comfort zone, people tend to react negatively. What does that have to do with not caring about Americans?

[redsquirrel]

Forcing faith on others is wrong. Never have I advocated that, do I believe people should have more faith, yes. HOWEVER, that is different from the government forcing beliefs on people, something I fight against. I don't seem to understand what this has to do with anything, other than for you to bash Republicans. Many Republicans do no base what they believe in faith: My family bases their Republican ideals on one thing: MONEY.

I guess you didn't read the article at the beginning of this thread. Of course you didn't. It's even written by someone in the UK. Here, let me save you some time:

"They [Republicans]are being tricked into opposing their own interests through false fears and invented demons. Last week, one of the Republicans sent to disrupt a healthcare town hall started a fight and was injured – and then complained he had no health insurance"

"How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality? It begins, I suspect, with religion. They are taught from a young age that it is good to have "faith" – which is, by definition, a belief without any evidence to back it up. You don't have "faith" that Australia exists, or that fire burns: you have evidence. You only need "faith" to believe the untrue or unprovable. Indeed, they are taught that faith is the highest aspiration and most noble cause. Is it any surprise this then percolates into their political views? Faith-based thinking spreads and contaminates the rational."

You speak pompously about your parents beliefs...yet it's those very beliefs (the rich get richer) that have driven this very debate. You speak about helping out the little guy, and Habitat for Humanity- yet you totally contradict yourself! Making it sound like you are out there to help for the greater good- when in reality, you don't really give a shit- all you care about is staying rich & getting richer.

[redsquirrel]

First off, not everyone was screaming for change. The liberal and youth were. When pushed out of a comfort zone, people tend to react negatively. What does that have to do with not caring about Americans?

Hmmm....Really??? See, that's funny- I think I remember a large number of independents, elderly AND even some Republican based voters- my husband being one of them, as voting for Obama.