What happens to water if it’s not allowed to expand when frozen?

[dna9488]

exactly. and what gives in. does the water simply not expand and freeze? or can water freeze somehow with not expanding?

The water in the center will not freeze due to pressure. The outer edges will freeze.

[Bouncer]

It has to do with the volume of the water. If you have a 1x1 space and you fill it with water and you put 5' thick walls around it, no it won't break that wall, but if you have 200 gallons of water and you confine it in a smaller space with 5' wall around it, it'll break through.

how can you confine 200 gallons of water into a smaller space then itself? lol.

if you fill a 1x1 space full with liquid water and then freeze it after that space has been sealed the water still has to expand. you say no but why? what happens to the water?

[Bouncer]

Read post #9

At some point, if the material containing the water is very strong, the box or whatever will be fine. What you will have is pressure. Lots and lots of pressure. That pressure will build up and stay that way until it is released.

lots of pressure correct.

so the question becomes, does the water freeze without being able to expand?

[Bouncer]

The water in the center will not freeze due to pressure. The outer edges will freeze.

cant happen. even outer edges implies expansion. if there is absolutely no room for expansion and the surrounding wall is strong enough how could the outter edges freeze?

[dna9488]

lots of pressure correct.

so the question becomes, does the water freeze without being able to expand?

The water in the center of the object does not freeze, but rather the edges do.

The edges will expand until every space is consumed. What doesn't freeze doesn't expand. Like i said pressure build up will occur, when there is pressure the molecules move very rapidly, fast moving molecules cause water to move. Moving water doesn't freeze. If it does freeze due to moving at a slow rate, you will see these layers of ice.

What i am trying to say is this: as part of the water starts to freeze, the volume will increase, but because there is no room for expanding the pressure will rise. This will lower the freezing point, preventing the water from freezing farther.

[Bouncer]

The water in the center of the object does not freeze, but rather the edges do.

The edges will expand until every space is consumed. What doesn't freeze doesn't expand. Like i said pressure build up will occur, when there is pressure the molecules move very rapidly, fast moving molecules cause water to move. Moving water doesn't freeze. If it does freeze due to moving at a slow rate, you will see these layers of ice.

What i am trying to say is this: as part of the water starts to freeze, the volume will increase, but because there is no room for expanding the pressure will rise. This will lower the freezing point, preventing the water from freezing farther.

but even the edges freezing would be expansion. in my scenario there is no room for expansion at all.

also, is there a limit to the temperature that it wont freeze? what if the temp was taken down to say 200 below zero. would the water still not freeze and still not expand?

[dna9488]

but even the edges freezing would be expansion. in my scenario there is no room for expansion at all.

also, is there a limit to the temperature that it wont freeze? what if the temp was taken down to say 200 below zero. would the water still not freeze and still not expand?

if that is the scenario, it will not freeze at all. Doesn't matter how cold it gets. This is jumping in physics, less chemistry. Its long bro, and i don't get it because i haven't taken those grad classes.

[dna9488]

OK FUCK! both answers are right. Depending on how cold it got, it would freeze.

Like i said bouncer, this physics shit is beyond me.

Here is the short answer:
If water is prevented from expanding it can still freeze if the temperature is low enough but its molecules wouldn't be arranged in the typical ice formation.

THIS IS WHY:

Given the known values for water of :

thermic dilatation coefficient at constant P: a = (1/V)(∂V/∂T)P

isothermal compressibility coefficient: k = -(1/V)(∂V/∂P)T

Clapeyron coefficient: b = dP/dT at equilibrium between the two phases

It's possible to compute the pressure variation with temperature at constant volume:

w = (∂P/∂T)V

since it can be proven that w = a/k

and then we cam compare it with b.


a = -1*10-4 K-1 at P = 1 atm, T = 273 K

k = 4.6*10-10 Pa-1 at P = 1atm

b = -1.3*107 Pa/K.

So w = -2.1*105 Pa/K

Then, since it results that |w| < |b|, water cannot remain in the liquid form = must freeze.

This chart right made everything click:

Water phase diagram

[dna9488]

In other words:

When water is under high pressure, it comes denser. If the temperature is cold enough, the molecules are forced to be packed tighter. Therefore, once it is tightly packed, it will not expand and the water will freeze.

THANK YOU BITCHES... NOW GIVE ME MY PHD IN CHEMISTRY.

[mofo]

4 joules.

[Bouncer]

In other words:

When water is under high pressure, it comes denser. If the temperature is cold enough, the molecules are forced to be packed tighter. Therefore, once it is tightly packed, it will not expand and the water will freeze.

THANK YOU BITCHES... NOW GIVE ME MY PHD IN CHEMISTRY.

so water can freeze without expanding under the right circumstances. interesting.

[dna9488]

so water can freeze without expanding under the right circumstances. interesting.

Yup, fuckin crazy man. I want to see what the ice looks like.

[Bouncer]

i wonder where the limit is. like how much pressure does it take to keep it from expanding.

obviously a thin metal pipe is not enough.

[dna9488]

i wonder where the limit is. like how much pressure does it take to keep it from expanding.

obviously a thin metal pipe is not enough.

depends on the volume of water and thickness of the object.

[Bouncer]

depends on the volume of water and thickness of the object.

i wonder where the limit is for 1 gallon of water. how thick does the steel have to be.