Scary shit boys.....WWIII ????

[AvidFisherman]

I'm back on my ketogenic kick so I'm not going to be able to eat much peanut butter anymore.

[Scrumhalf]

Iran is our friend in this. Too bad our pols are too stupid to realize this. They are busy painting Iran as the bogeyman because it will allow us to sell more arms to the Saudis. Stupid. Both Iran and the West want the same thing - to crush ISIS. Painting Iran as the villian is by people who don't know the difference between Shias and Sunnis - i.e. your average 'Murican politician.

[chuckz28]

Iran is our friend in this. Too bad our pols are too stupid to realize this. They are busy painting Iran as the bogeyman because it will allow us to sell more arms to the Saudis. Stupid. Both Iran and the West want the same thing - to crush ISIS. Painting Iran as the villian is by people who don't know the difference between Shias and Sunnis - i.e. your average 'Murican politician.

ROFL. I don't buy that for one second. Here. Listen to Irans ayotollah himself. https://youtu.be/NEJvJW9VCss

Add to this the thousands of brand new Iranian built warheads for IEDs and missile systems being used against our troops with footage of being brought across the borders paints an obvious picture.

For as smart as you are that is completely ignoring the facts that Iran is not a friend to the US. A mutual interest of one enemy in common does not make us friends.

[Bouncer]

Chuck in this case "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" holds very true. Iran hates ISIS as much as we do if not more.

[chuckz28]

I'll have no part of being " friendly " with a nation that does not repent for the murder of our troops, that calls us the great Satan, that says Death to America, that treats women as objects made for men, that their entire government is based off of religion. They can pound sand.

[Bouncer]

I'll have no part of being " friendly " with a nation that does not repent for the murder of our troops, that calls us the great Satan, that says Death to America, that treats women as objects made for men, that their entire government is based off of religion. They can pound sand.

That type of attitude towards Germany after world war 1 and the unwillingness to work together or forgive is exactly what led to world war 2.

There is a bigger picture here but I'm not sure you'll ever be able to see it from within the confines of middle murica Ohioer... ;)

[chuckz28]

This is laughable how ignorant it is to not take a leader at his word and ignore what they have done to fund the death of our people. Both ISIS and Iran hate America and Iran is a far bigger threat than ISIS. They have funding that dwarfs ISIS.

To pump any money into the middle East in any way is a waste and a continuation of creating enemies. Saudis can go to hell too. We shouldn't be selling any arms to those fuckwits.

[Scrumhalf]

You do realize that a lot of what the mullahs say is for bluster, right? They have to put on this tough face for political and public consumption. Reality is that the Iranians will be insane to use their nukes. They will get obliterated in a second. All this talk about the nuclear threat, etc is baloney. The Iranians, unlike the North Koreans, are uber rational. They are not going to do anything to get destroyed.

One thing people have to realize is that Iran and what is now Iraq and parts or Syria have always been Shia. You cannot deny the Iranians the right to be the alpha dogs in an area that has been traditionally their cultural sphere.

The Iranians want ISIS gone because they are Sunni and are imposing themselves in an area that has traditionally been Shia. We need to accept Iranian prinacy and work with them to get rid of ISIS. The problem is that politicians say brain dead stuff like Iran is going to work with ISIS to cause terror! Stupidity and sheer insanity.

We have to stop worrying about what happened in the 70s. That's old news. If you keep going back there to find reasons to hare the Iranians, then we will never make any progress.

And Chuck, our best friends in the area are the Saudis. You have no idea what you are saying about Iranian treatment of women vs. the Saudis. Iran is a lot closer to Turkey in this regard than the Saudis. Saudi is just about the worst in terms of human rights, executions, torture, you name it. Yet we are perfectly happy getting in bed with them. Our anger at Iran is pretty hypocritical and don't think everyone in the Middle East doesn't recognize this.

[chuckz28]

I'm not even talking about nukes or the 70s. I'm talking about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with the weapons and training they offered to kill Americans.

The Sunni and Shi'a can both fuck themselves. They are political systems based on religious ideology. They have no issues stoning women to death or lashing them in public for minor infractions. Their bluster is a continual basis until we lay crippling sanctions and they act as if it is all a fallacy. These are not the kind of people we should be friendly with.

[Scrumhalf]

Iran is a pragmatic uber rational state. Yes, the mullahs hold sway, but they feel boxed in politically and economically because of sanctions, etc. You are very wrong when you say that Iran is worse than ISIS. Iran is a civilization that is thousands of years old and from any modern metric, culturally, educationally, scientifically, more in like with countries like Turkey, Lebanon, etc. Saudi, ISIS etc. shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Iran. Once again, it is the colossal ignorance of the West showing where we lump ALL these countries as MUSLM, hence bad. It is a ridiculously flawed world view and it has hurt us badly through history.

[chuckz28]

Iran is a pragmatic uber rational state. Yes, the mullahs hold sway, but they feel boxed in politically and economically because of sanctions, etc. You are very wrong when you say that Iran is worse than ISIS. Iran is a civilization that is thousands of years old and from any modern metric, culturally, educationally, scientifically, more in like with countries like Turkey, Lebanon, etc. Saudi, ISIS etc. shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Iran. Once again, it is the colossal ignorance of the West showing where we lump ALL these countries as MUSLM, hence bad. It is a ridiculously flawed world view and it has hurt us badly through history.

They have the financial ability to damage America where ISIS does not. They have more American blood on their hands than ISIS. Hence my argument they are potentially worse than ISIS.

You say you are an atheist but I've only heard you blast Christianity and defend Isalm. I would be saying the same thing if they performed these atrocities as a Christian nation. Muslim is bad yes, as well as Christian and Hindu and all of them but we are talking about Iran. Hell based on what they do to women alone I am dumbfounded you would defend them.

[Scrumhalf]

The Sunni and Shi'a can both fuck themselves.....These are not the kind of people we should be friendly with.

So why the hell are we pumping up the Saudis? It is no coincidence that Saudi is the leading source of terrorism. You know why? Because their whole system is based on lack of human rights, high unemployment among young people with no employment prospects, etc. Couple that with widespread torture, bombing and killing in neighboring countries like Yemen, and you have a system that breeds violence. And when the young Saudi guy sees the US in bed with the sheiks, he isn't exactly filled with love for the west.

The politicians keep feeding this BS line that " they hate us because they hate freedom and our way of life." Utter and complete nonsense. The average middle eastern loves freedom as much as we do. But they see the US as the oppressor, siding with their despotic politicians, unilaterally supporting Israel who are crushing the Palestinians. They don't hate our freedom. They hate the fact that we represent the exact opposite of freedom in the middle East.

We need to realize this. Any sensible person will recognize this. But US foreign policy is built on anything but common sense.

[Scrumhalf]

You say you are an atheist but I've only heard you blast Christianity and defend Isalm. I would be saying the same thing if they performed these atrocities as a Christian nation. Muslim is bad yes, as well as Christian and Hindu and all of them but we are talking about Iran. Hell based on what they do to women alone I am dumbfounded you would defend them.

Whoa.. whoa... whoa... hold it right there. I blasted Christianity when they didn't deserve it? When? And tell me where I defended Islam?

I don't defend any religion. If fundamental Christianity is against gays, then I will criticize them. If Islam is against women's rights, then I've got a problem with that. I have said on this forum that the caste system or stuff like that in has no place in modern society. Show me where I have defended some stupid religious belief!

You keep falling back into the same trap. DO NOT treat all these countries the same because they are all Muslim countries. That's like saying that both the US and Zimbabwe are Christian countries so they are the same. There are certainly a lot of issues with Islam but if you paint Turkey and Indonesia with the same brush as Saudi Arabia just because they are all Muslim countries, then we are going to have highly flawed policies in terms of dealing with these countries.

ISIS is certainly a problem. But just pounding them from the air will have limited utility and will drive the population into their arms. Our best option is to recognize that the people best suited to fight ISIS are the Syrians and the Iranians because Sunni ISIS is intruding on are region that traditionally has had Syrian and Iranian hegemony. Now, the Sunni countries like Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc. have no love for ISIS, so if they can help, great. But the worst thing we can do is to put boots on the ground, turn the area into a glass factory, bomb it into the stone age, or whatever stupid slogan the pols like to spout, to a cheering and ignorant audience.

But of course, this requires some level of wisdom. It requires us to acknowledge that even though we don't see eye to eye with the Syrians or the Iranians, it is their area and the best way to stabilize it is with their cooperation, not without.

[AvidFisherman]

When I was in Iraq I spoke to a lot of people on the street and in the IA. Most of them love Americans as people but hate the politicians and they realize, perhaps more than most Americans, that the politicians act in their own interests, not those of the people.

[Scrumhalf]

Precisely!! I spent a chunk of time in developing countries. I have yet to find a single person who "hates the US because we stand for freedom." That's the dumbest shit that politicians, and the talking heads, especially the ones on the right, say.

The policies of the US, sadly are to prop up dictators, run roughshod over centuries-old sensitivities, impose our will on countries without the consent of the people, and generally act like assholes. We are bullies, guys, and the only thing the people want to do is to give the bully a bloody nose.

If there is one place to start, it would be to fix the Palestinian problem. That singlehandedly would salvage our reputation in the Middle East, where we are pretty much written off as a lackey of Israel. If we could kick Israel's ass and tell them that we will cut off all aid if they don't give the Palestinians their state based on the 1947 US resolutions, then that will go a LONG way to say to the average guy in the street in the Middle East that we are honest brokers. Then, work with the Iranians, Syrians, etc. to get order into that region. We CANNOT walk in there, say I'll with you and you but not with you and you because I don't like the two of you. WE cannot remake the Middle East in what we think it should look like. Great Britain tried that in the early 20th century and look what a mess it made.