yet...people are against the death penalty

[Scrumhalf]

Redback summed it up for me as well.

The death penalty is a barbaric remnant of uncivilized society.

I don't want to government to mete out vengeance in the guise of justice. Just like you don't rob the robber's house, or rape the rapist in return, one shouldn't murder the murderer. This debases us and lowers us to the level of the killer.

We obviously disagree on this, but that's how I feel.

[MattG]

I must be an ego maniac...because I have "Eye for an eye" tatted across my back with snarling dobermans on each side :D

[Bouncer]

Well for starters I don't think I would take either of your two options. I'm not sure it's really a great example. We have many choices as a society in regards to capital punishment.

I think it is. I think you guys say "it's just revenge" in a way that almost dismisses the brutality of the crime.

Revenge or not, for fuck sake man that's not the pressing issue IMO when a child is laying on the ground dead and you just saw him do it.

I don't say to myself "oh I'm too advanced for that" or "ohh this is just revenge"... I blow his fucken head off without a doubt and feel good that this scum will never be able to hurt another child again.

I do get though that my point is different from scrums. If we are executing the wrong criminals and shit like that then I have to come over to your side and agree.

[Bouncer]

I must be an ego maniac...because I have "Eye for an eye" tatted across my back with snarling dobermans on each side :D

No that just makes you a poser. Bit like putting a tapout sticker on your window back in the day.

:D

[MattG]

A poser doesn't beat the shit out of somebody that ripped him off. Certain things I have no tolerance for. Somebody shits on me I get even.lol

[Keiser]

I must be an ego maniac...because I have "Eye for an eye" tatted across my back with snarling dobermans on each side :D

Not an ego maniac, you're just not enlightened yet. :)

And it's amazing to me in general how much more thoughtful Scrum is than many on this board. Intelligent people tend to find a gray area in everything and see both sides in a thoughtful manner. Less intelligent people tend to see everything in a black and white right/wrong framework; very bias and reactionary in their opinions.

I actually shouldn't use intelligent because it really isn't intelligence that makes this difference in people. It's typically just wisdom and a broader more traveled life experience that create this.

[redback]

I think it is. I think you guys say "it's just revenge" in a way that almost dismisses the brutality of the crime.

Revenge or not, for fuck sake man that's not the pressing issue IMO when a child is laying on the ground dead and you just saw him do it.

I don't say to myself "oh I'm too advanced for that" or "ohh this is just revenge"... I blow his fucken head off without a doubt and feel good that this scum will never be able to hurt another child again.

I do get though that my point is different from scrums. If we are executing the wrong criminals and shit like that then I have to come over to your side and agree.

It's not just about how you feel personally towards the crime though is it. It's how things affect us as a whole.

[Bouncer]

It's not just about how you feel personally towards the crime though is it. It's how things affect us as a whole.

I just don't think I could live with myself if I were to let someone walk away after committing such a crime.

I'm making a different point in general I realize but I do feel that it ties into the argument.

To me it's not about "murdering the murderer" it's about what's right. A grown man that kills a child... what's right is not to treat him with respect and comfort.

[Scrumhalf]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that the perpetrator walks away. I think that life without parole, for example, is a punishment that effectively removes the person from society. I think anyone who thinks life without parole is a comfortable bed with 3 square meals a day isn't really understanding what a lifetime behind bars really means to the human psyche.

[Bouncer]

I don't think anybody is suggesting that the perpetrator walks away. I think that life without parole, for example, is a punishment that effectively removes the person from society. I think anyone who thinks life without parole is a comfortable bed with 3 square meals a day isn't really understanding what a lifetime behind bars really means to the human psyche.

Compared to the human psyche of a mother who has had her child stollen from her in such a brutal way...

I don't think the punishment fits that crime. The criminal gets to breath air, gets to read books, gets to write letters. What does the little girl get? What does the mother of that little girl get?

[Scrumhalf]

I am not minimizing the pain and suffering of the family. But I don't believe that the state should commit a monstrous act as punishment for a monstrous act. Then, it is no better than the perpetrator.

Bouncer, I am not dismissing what you are saying. It might be emotionally satisfying to repay a murderer in kind, but it is morally reprehensible to do so, as an enlightened society.

[lipripper]

A hypothetical that I'd like you to be honest and answer.

You see with your own eyes a a child raped and murdered. You are given a gun and 2 options.

1. Shoot and kill the criminal.

2. Allow him to walk away because it's only about revenge and you're from a civilized society.

You are in the middle of nowhere and you have no phone so you cannot call the police. You must pick 1 of the 2 options.

Please answer straight without dancing around the subject.

You will never get a straight answer from folks who have that mindset. They cant just state a yes or no answer...every problem has to be over scrutinized to the point of getting completely off subject, in some ways this is a good thing....in others...you never get to the solution.

Again...nothing is...perfect....in this world.. Mistakes will always be made we are all human.but at some point a reasonable person should understand some things are never gonna be better and extermination / termination/just elimination is the answer to that problem .

[Bouncer]

I am not minimizing the pain and suffering of the family. But I don't believe that the state should commit a monstrous act as punishment for a monstrous act. Then, it is no better than the perpetrator.

Bouncer, I am not dismissing what you are saying. It might be emotionally satisfying to repay a murderer in kind, but it is morally reprehensible to do so, as an enlightened society.

scrum, i think we agree on most things when it comes to an "enlightened society" or what the picture in our heads of what that should be.

BUT we hit a road block on this one. if the current system doesn't work and they are killing the wrong people then I agree with you that we need to scrap that. BUT. in clear cut cases when there is a crime as brutal as this one i think an enlightened society can and should erase such as person.

IMO it is inefficient and silly to waste time and money keeping such a criminal alive until he or she dies naturally. Think about the end goal. they are both the same except 1 option comes much faster and at much less cost. that to me is the smarter option and the more enlightened option. I think when you talk about "morals" you are almost getting into the religious realm which to me is the opposite of what an enlightened sociality should be.