Fuck you california..

[Bouncer]

Yes absolutely I'm suggesting that.

If you were born in the south 150 years ago to slave owning parents your concepts would have been vastly different.

You cannot compare concepts of those in Europe 150 years ago. Lee was a product of the south.

[lipripper]

love the excuses for all but America...LMFAO

[Scrumhalf]

Emancipation as an idea had taken firm root in Western thought by the mid 1800s. Go read about Wiliam Wilberforce, the Second Great Awakening and the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833.

There was no justification for slavery in the mid 1800s. It was morally indefensible simply because the rational thought that came about with the Enlightenment and the Second Great Awakening made it absolutely unsupportable.

Come on man, surely you are joking. Are you seriously suggesting that people in the mid 19th century should be held to the same standard as someone over 2000 year ago? And if I criticize slavery in the Americas and not the ancient Romans, I am being inconsistent?

[Bouncer]

At the time of the civil war concepts were completely different.

Had you been born in the south 150 years ago you would absolutely have a different mindset. It's very easy for you to sit here in 2018 and judge Lee.

Yet apparently you give Alexander and the Egyptians a pass because the gap in time was longer. Lol.

Say it with me now.... HYPOCRITE!

[Scrumhalf]

Man, this was literally 150 years ago. Not a thousand. Most other in the West (not colonies) wanted nothing to do with slavery. We knew better, yet we did it. There's no way to spin this positively. It was wrong, and we knew it was wrong, yet we did it. And let's not even bring up Jim Crow, separate but equal, etc. That's in the freaking 20th century. It's hard to believe that the civil rights era is not even 60 years ago. That's how fucked up we were and in a lot of ways, still are. The decimation of Native Americans and slavery are the two gigantic stains on our history that we should never forget.

[Bouncer]

He thought slavery was a noble cause that was worth fighting the tyrant United States over? Gotcha.

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time and perspective.

we call Alexander "the great". yet he killed hundreds of thousands and enslaved many more. we think of the pyramids as "wonders" yet they were built by slaves. nobody is talking about changing the name of Alexandria or dismantling the pyramids because they "glorify slavery".

concepts change over time. whats excepted today will be seen as insane in 100 years.

Alexander still did amazing things and the Pyramids are absolute wonders despite the ugly history. the same applies to Lee.

you see things how you want to see them scrum. you have an inability to view things without bias.

[Scrumhalf]

Nice strawman about Trump. Nobody is raising an army to literally fight Trump. The place to defeat him is at the ballot box. And regardless, nobody is talking about breaking up the country, like the Confederates did. If someone did that, then sure, they'll be traitors too.

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[Scrumhalf]

He thought slavery was a noble cause that was worth fighting the tyrant United States over? Gotcha.

And your argument would have some merit if his goal was to stay in the US and somehow change the government. He literally wanted to leave. He was part of the confederate states of America. Not the United States of America. He committed armed insurrection. That's why he's a traitor, not some kind of reformer.

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[Bouncer]

disagree. absolutely not a traitor. maybe you need to go over the amendments a little more carefully. US citizens have a right to stand up and fight a government they feel has crossed the line. that was the intention of the founding fathers. to keep a government in check. they had lived through a tyrant government in England and didn't want to see that ever happen in America.

state rights was what Lee saw as that line crossing. he felt the government was acting like tyrants and he was within his right to fight against that.

you also have to keep time in perspective. you cannot judge Lee by todays standards. you have to understand excepted thoughts process of the time. the concept of whats right and wrong changes over time. had you lived hundreds or thousands of years ago you would have completely different concepts and thats a fact.

one mans traitor is another mans freedom fighter. if someone raised an army to fight against trump and his ideals you would call that person a brave hero. others would call him a traitor to America... it's called perspective.

[lipripper]

wow...but people not standing for the flag are outstanding citizens...you attitude is part of the problem. if its so fucked up here..why do you stay? why not leave? go where is better? serious question.

[Scrumhalf]

He was a military genius and known for treating people with respect, even enemy prisoners.

I don't care. So he was a military genius and didn't commit war crimes. He was still a traitor to America.

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[Scrumhalf]

Lee was not a traitor. He had to fight and he couldn't bring himself to fight against his family and friends.

He was literally the leader of the rebel army. That's the definition of a traitor. The confederates literally said they don't want to be Americans any more and wanted out. Don't try to put lipstick on this pig. Accept that the confederates fucked up, got their asses kicked and the country moved on. It doesn't reflect badly whatsoever on any Southerner today UNLESS he/she actually defends the confederates.

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[Bouncer]

Statues belong in a museum. Not in the city square. It's ironic how flag waving "patriots" always jump to the defense of the worst traitors in our country's history.

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Lee was not a traitor. He had to fight and he couldn't bring himself to fight against his family and friends.

[Bouncer]

He was a military genius and known for treating people with respect, even enemy prisoners.

[Scrumhalf]

Statues belong in a museum. Not in the city square. It's ironic how flag waving "patriots" always jump to the defense of the worst traitors in our country's history.

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