Moving over to AS

[Mick]

Been training all natural for the past 2 1/2 years, using only creatine, protein supplements and ZMA. I've reached a point where I can't lift any more and haven't put on any extra size for around half a year now. Eating six times a day, every 2 1/2 hours, taking in around 350grams of protein a day with the addition of the protein shakes/bars etc.

I'm having about 10 days recovery per muscle trained now (started out with 3 days between), switching my training cycle around all of the time, varying it. Train myself to the point of collapsing (not through rep. quantity though, last set is around 3-4 reps with the heaviest weight I can lift, for example shoulder press ends on 81kgs/178Ilbs and doing the progressively heavier warming up sets before hand).

Height - 5'9"
weight - 183Ilbs
BF% - 11%

As said above, I've reached a point where I'm no longer gaining size and not increasing the weights I lift at the gym. I'm not totally un-satisfied with the way I've turned out, I started out at 140Ilbs, thin as a rake, with arms like match-sticks. But it's not enough. I want to be bigger MUCH bigger. So I've decided to move over to AS's and it's not a decision taken lightly.

Been researching different steroids, their properties, side-effects, dosages using the info on this site and the site which links to it (bulknutrition) and decided to start out with Deca. Mainly for the fact that it doesn't exhibit the same or rather same level of side-effects as many of the other AS, which do concern me. I'm already showing slight male pattern baldness, only slight, but don't want it further aggravated. I'll be using Nolvadex with it just to make sure any e-sides don't surface.

Basically what I wanted was a bit of advice from the people in the know on this site, just to make sure I've got my info right, and cycle details correct.

I was planning on starting out with 350mgs of deca in the first week, slighlty less than 2mg per pound of body-weight. Staying at this dosage for the 2 weeks after then coming off Deca. Waiting a full week as Deca stays in the body for about this time after discontinuing use. Then starting PCT with 3 weeks of Nolvadex. I'm a little unsure of how much Nolv to take, advice I've read states around 10-30mg a day for men. Is there any rule of thumb to go by such as how much anti-eostrogen to take compared to how much and what type of AS's you're taking? If all goes well after that first AS/PCT cycle, then I'll continue with an upped dosage of 2 mg's of deca per pound of body-weight and so-on.

Any advice would be much appreciated. Sorry if any of the requested information on cycle advice is missing from my post, it's only my second one.

Thanks for any Help.

Mick.

[BENCH355ANIMAL]

Let me first thank you for doing all the research yourself first, and coming in here asking an educated question. In my personal opinion I would not do deca alone for your first cycle. I've read where others have done it as a stand alone and made gains, but it can really shut you down, and can cause progesterone gyno. I would incorporate either test cyp or enth at 400-500 mg per week in 2 shots for 12-14 weeks, and keep the deca dosage as you've stated above weeks 12-14. It would also be a good idea to run HCG throughout the cycle with 250 I.U. twice a week (Mon-Thurs), and 20 mg of Nolva thru as well. It's better to be safe than sorry. You would discontinue use of the HCG 2 weeks prior to the beginning of your PCT, and then do Nolvadex @ 60 mg for 5 days, then 40 mg for 7 days, and then 20 for another week. Some people prefer Clomid post cycle, but I don't think you'll need it if running HCG during. IF you decide to NOT use the HCG, then I would also incorporate clomid into your pct regimen @ 150 mg for 3 days, 100 mg for 5 days, and then 50 mg for 5 days.

[house1]

i would rather see you run a low dose test cycle rather then a deca only cycle - deca by itself may kill your sex drive -- i mean dead doesnt want to get up -

low dose test cycle for 10 to 12 weeks would be better-

test 300 mgs --10 to 12 weeks

2 weeks after your last injection -- nolva 40 mgs for 14 days then 20 mgs for another 14 days

if you really want to stay with the deca only -- pct starts 3 weeks after last injection -- same setup -

i would run a low dose test cycle though!! run something to protect the hair while on the test - would be better

not sure what guys are using to combat the hair loss

[Mick]

Thanks for the feed-back there. You've both been very helpful.

[Pumpdogg]

Mick take the advice and do a test only first cycle..House laid down the rest for ya.... as for dose that is up to you as well, I would do 300-500mgs per week of the test. I think you will be more than happy with that dose ( either one ).

Make sure you are in a calorie abundant invironment. Get your carbs up... your protein levels are fine.

Try and get the most of your foods from whole source foods....chicken, steak, lean beef, tuna etc... dot forget your vegies and good carbs... brown rice, yams, potatoes, etc...

I think the nolva will be fine for pct. Too many people complain about negative sides when using clomid IMO.

Best of luck ya bro

PD

[ROCKETW19]

in your post you said deca for 2 weeks you meant 12 i think if not 2 weeks wont do a thing to you. if you dont mind deca dick (no hard ons) i would go with test only also but at 183lbs 400mgs a week for 12 weeks. i like house1 PCT thats the way i do it but i like to add in clomid At 100mgs first14 days 50mgs last 14 days along with the nolva i dont feel the need for HCG but thats your call. good luck.

[therock]

Actually, I think all of you except house are wrong. But dont take it to offense either. Bro 1st off how old are you? Also have you been doing the same workouts all the time? Have you been working out both fast and slow twitched muscle fibers? Also post a you diet as most people that jump into gear actually shouldnt and the diet is what is making them plateau. You need to also utilize (spelling) Nutrient Timing. Meaning are you intaking protien and carbs 10min prior to workout,during, and a shit load immediatly after. Also are you intaking a small carb meal with high protien 1-2hrs after workout? If you answered no to any of these questions then gear is not the choice for you. If you answered yes to all these questions then its time to gear up. But be honest with yourself bro, dont lie to yourself thats the worst thing you can do in bodybuilding. If you are not doing Nutrient Timing then you are not utilizing your natural insulin and therefore are at plateau. Trust me if you can avoid gear do it. If anyone tells you that you shouldnt wait and just do it then they are the stupidist BB on the planet cause all smart ones will tell you to wait until you reach your full potential and chances are you havent. But if you do decide to run gear do it like house said, but I would even go lower to 250mgs a week for 12wks. Reason being (and I have said this in plenty threads before) your body produces 49mgs a week at max of test. So this means you are adding 201mgs of test which is way more then enough to gain 15-35lbs depending on diet, because diet is 85% w/o it you aint got shit. Good luck and let me know the answers to all your questions bro so I can help you make the right choice.

[Mick]

Thanks for the advice, I'll try and answer the rest of your questions as best I can.

I'm 25. I always try and vary the exercises I do, not get stuck into the same routine and the same exercises. Say bi exercises one day would be hammer curls and standing EZ barbell curls, and the next time I'd do standing concentration curls and standing reverse grip EZ barbell curls. I progress through the sets, warming up first, not tiring myself out straight away, adding that little more exertion each set with each increase in weight, until I come to my fourth set which is the heaviest and manage to get around 3-5 reps off, and it's real heart and soul stuff. No slacking at all, exertion to the point when you think your heads going to explode. I've heard the saying "seeing stars", well it's true, at the end of my last set I'm a quivering wreck, dizzy as hell, with all of these flashing lights in my vision. (Also, when performing the reps, I take more time on the eccentric part of the exercise, lowering really slowly, resisting all the way down. Not to say the concentric doesn't get attention, it does, just eccentric gets more).

Onto diet now. Well, typical day is as follows:

Breakfast - 6 egg whites and one slice of whole-wheat bread.

Meal #2 - 2 chicken breasts with 3 egg whites, small portion of brown rice

Lunch - Baked potato filled with 1 can of tuna, red onion, lettuce.

Meal#4 - 2 chicken breasts with 3 egg whites small portion of brown rice

Tea - Rump steak with baked potato, mushrooms and onions

Supper - 2 battered and peppered chicken escalopes.

That is literally the same every day, I don't have a problem with repeptetive eating, I love all of the above. It's almost ritualised what I eat every day, never changes.

As for intake of protein before, during and after workout I have a protein drink before I leave for the gym, and it takes about 20 minutes to get there. I don't have anything during, tried it before and I can't keep anything down when I get into the real heavy lifting. Always end up puking. I have a protein drink straight after training, literally 30 seconds after from the gym bar, and I have my supper about an hour after coming in from the gym. I also have a protein drink before going to bed.

Being totally honest with all of the above, I want the best advice to get bigger, a lot bigger, so I'd only be cheating on myself as you said, by giving false information.

Thanks.

[ROCKETW19]

rock how could we all be wrong when i said almost the same thing as house1. besides these are opinions and opinions cant be wrong!

[DiamondCutCows]

Originally posted by ROCKETW19
rock how could we all be wrong when i said almost the same thing as house1

Its either cuz House gave him the option of running the Deca or Rock is just being nice to MODS:D

[ROCKETW19]

Originally posted by DiamondCutCows
Its either cuz House gave him the option of running the Deca or Rock is just being nice to MODS:D

:rofl:

[GreekTank]

Originally posted by BENCH355ANIMAL
Let me first thank you for doing all the research yourself first, and coming in here asking an educated question. In my personal opinion I would not do deca alone for your first cycle. I've read where others have done it as a stand alone and made gains, but it can really shut you down, and can cause progesterone gyno. I would incorporate either test cyp or enth at 400-500 mg per week in 2 shots for 12-14 weeks, and keep the deca dosage as you've stated above weeks 12-14. It would also be a good idea to run HCG throughout the cycle with 250 I.U. twice a week (Mon-Thurs), and 20 mg of Nolva thru as well. It's better to be safe than sorry. You would discontinue use of the HCG 2 weeks prior to the beginning of your PCT, and then do Nolvadex @ 60 mg for 5 days, then 40 mg for 7 days, and then 20 for another week. Some people prefer Clomid post cycle, but I don't think you'll need it if running HCG during. IF you decide to NOT use the HCG, then I would also incorporate clomid into your pct regimen @ 150 mg for 3 days, 100 mg for 5 days, and then 50 mg for 5 days.

Do you find this HCG approach works for you best? most people shoot 250 i.u. 5 days on 2 days off for 2 weeks only, after the 6th week of 12 week cycle then resume HCG 2 weeks after last shot of TEST E then jump into clomid & nolva

[therock]

Originally posted by DiamondCutCows
Its either cuz House gave him the option of running the Deca or Rock is just being nice to MODS:D

:rofl: Its just that I dont like the fact that you and bench stick to that 400-500mg rule. I know its pretty much standard for everyone but thats because no one actually wants to try taking only 250mgs and adjusting their diet. But if its your 1st time I truely believe 250mgs is way more then enough to gain what you want, plus it opens so many doors aswell. But what I really should of said was I disagree w/ yall rather then saying yall are wrong and I truely applogize for that. I was in a hurry and thats the 1st thing that came out sorry bros. PLEASE FORGIVE ME I PROMISE TO BE AN ANGEL FROM NOW ON!:angel: ;)

[therock]

Originally posted by Mick
Thanks for the advice, I'll try and answer the rest of your questions as best I can.

I'm 25. I always try and vary the exercises I do, not get stuck into the same routine and the same exercises. Say bi exercises one day would be hammer curls and standing EZ barbell curls, and the next time I'd do standing concentration curls and standing reverse grip EZ barbell curls. I progress through the sets, warming up first, not tiring myself out straight away, adding that little more exertion each set with each increase in weight, until I come to my fourth set which is the heaviest and manage to get around 3-5 reps off, and it's real heart and soul stuff. No slacking at all, exertion to the point when you think your heads going to explode. I've heard the saying "seeing stars", well it's true, at the end of my last set I'm a quivering wreck, dizzy as hell, with all of these flashing lights in my vision. (Also, when performing the reps, I take more time on the eccentric part of the exercise, lowering really slowly, resisting all the way down. Not to say the concentric doesn't get attention, it does, just eccentric gets more).

Onto diet now. Well, typical day is as follows:

Breakfast - 6 egg whites and one slice of whole-wheat bread.

Meal #2 - 2 chicken breasts with 3 egg whites, small portion of brown rice

Lunch - Baked potato filled with 1 can of tuna, red onion, lettuce.

Meal#4 - 2 chicken breasts with 3 egg whites small portion of brown rice

Tea - Rump steak with baked potato, mushrooms and onions

Supper - 2 battered and peppered chicken escalopes.

That is literally the same every day, I don't have a problem with repeptetive eating, I love all of the above. It's almost ritualised what I eat every day, never changes.

As for intake of protein before, during and after workout I have a protein drink before I leave for the gym, and it takes about 20 minutes to get there. I don't have anything during, tried it before and I can't keep anything down when I get into the real heavy lifting. Always end up puking. I have a protein drink straight after training, literally 30 seconds after from the gym bar, and I have my supper about an hour after coming in from the gym. I also have a protein drink before going to bed.

Being totally honest with all of the above, I want the best advice to get bigger, a lot bigger, so I'd only be cheating on myself as you said, by giving false information.

Thanks.

Bro how many grams of protien and carbs do you drink b4 and after your workout? Also when you are working out if you cant down protien and carbs just at least make sure to get a high-glycemic carb drink w/o protien and just sip on it like if it was Powerade. That shouldnt upset your stomach. Also are you using glutamine after you workout? If so how many grams do you intake?

[therock]

Bump.