The Debate Last Night!

[dreamgirl]

Originally posted by sana
you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Primal Instinct is correct. the morning after pill only prevents a fertilized egg (if it did fertilize) from implanting itself in the uterus. you are thinking of the abortion pill - RU487 (or whatever).

your daughter wouldn't BE able to take the morning after pill if she's already pregnant.

Plan B - or the morning after pill - PREVENTS pregnancies. period.

please get your facts straight before you go spouting off.

The morning after pill is RU-487, the abortion pill, it's the EXACT same thing. I'm not saying to outlaw this, I don't think it should be handed out in schools, that's all.

And whose to say that a girl would find out they are pregnant and lie to get the pill?

I would want to know if my daughter got pregnant. I would want to talk to her about why she is having un-protected sex. It's my job as her mother to talk to her and guide her when she is underage whether she is 4 or 14.

[Primal Instinct]

If you're waiting on the school to inform you about a daughter's sexual activity (via dispensing RU-486) then you are much too late anyhow on addressing this issue.

[dreamgirl]

Originally posted by Primal Instinct
If you're waiting on the school to inform you about a daughter's sexual activity (via dispensing RU-486) then you are much too late anyhow on addressing this issue.

I didn't say this. I would hope that my daughter could come to me or her dad or even my mom if something happened. I hope that our relationship remains close. When she is a little older I will talk to her about this, right now she is 4.

Wasn't this a topic about the presidential debates? Not me and my parenting skills? JW

[redsquirrel]

Originally posted by dreamgirl
The morning after pill is RU-487, the abortion pill, it's the EXACT same thing. I'm not saying to outlaw this, I don't think it should be handed out in schools, that's all.

And whose to say that a girl would find out they are pregnant and lie to get the pill?

I would want to know if my daughter got pregnant. I would want to talk to her about why she is having un-protected sex. It's my job as her mother to talk to her and guide her when she is underage whether she is 4 or 14.

Girls don't have to lie to get the Pill!!! JESUS!!! ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS FIND THEIR NEAREST PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND GET THE PILL OR RU-486 THERE!. Like I said before- US has the HIGHEST teen pregancy rate...I'm not going to get into a whole bashing contest about mothering and guidance because it's counter productive. and not the point you are attempting to make.

You need to take sana's advice and get a clue as to what you are talking about on this issue because everything you are talking about NEVER BECAME LAW. Kerry did vote agains restricting federal funding for B/C. Even had it passed, it would have only gone to 180 schools.

So, your whole dreary picture of the school nurse standing outside her door, handing out RU 486 to every girl that walks by is BULLSHIT. I've also never heard of anyone overdosing and dying from too many hormones.

Kerry also believes parents have more control over their schools and VOTED TO PROTECT THEIR ABILITY TO SPEND MONEY AS THEY CHOOSE.

Oh yeah- and bush vetoed aid to 3rd world countries for women to be have access to birth control. Create more babies to create more poverty LEADING to that 3rd world country STAYING a 3rd world country....GREAT idea.

If this whole B/C issue is your main reason for voting for Bush, it is a sad attestment to how uninformed and naive some voters are.

[dreamgirl]

Originally posted by redsquirrel
If this whole B/C issue is your main reason for voting for Bush, it is a sad attestment to how uninformed and naive some voters are.

I am voting for Bush because I believe that he has the same views as I do. I believe that we are doing the right thing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

RS-For you to call me naive is a joke. I read up on everything on both candidates, I listen to the radio for both sides- the either very liberal views or very conservative views, I watch the news. I don't understand why you constantly are trying to attack my opinions. You can disagree with me, but you are almost making it personal. This is supposed to be about opinions not about personal attacks on other members.

[Primal Instinct]

Originally posted by dreamgirl
I didn't say this. I would hope that my daughter could come to me or her dad or even my mom if something happened. I hope that our relationship remains close. When she is a little older I will talk to her about this, right now she is 4.

Wasn't this a topic about the presidential debates? Not me and my parenting skills? JW

<QUOTE> "I didn't say this. I would hope that my daughter could come to me or her dad or even my mom if something happened. I hope that our relationship remains close. When she is a little older I will talk to her about this, right now she is 4.

Wasn't this a topic about the presidential debates? Not me and my parenting skills? JW"



Dreamgirl,

This is what you said in your earlier post and is what I'm responding to:
"RedSquirrel, you'd disagree once you had kids. If I found out someday that my daughter was pregnant and didn't feel she could come to me or her dad about it and decided to take the morning after pill which was available to her at any time frm her school, I'd be devasted. Especially that I couldn't have helped her out in that time of need. I would be furious that her school would give her a life changing pill without my knowledge. I don't think that a teenage girl can make that kind of life changing decision on her own."



I'm not really trying to argue with you but it seems that you are contradicting yourself with this statement and your most recent statement above. I beg to differ; it IS about parenting skills (not necessarily YOUR parenting skills) and not about whether students should have access to RU-487 in their time of need. As for being a parent, you are not unique in this knowledge, I also know a little bit about parenting- teenagers. I have been directly involved with this issue- not of teen pregnancy- but of birth control methods. I would hope to be consulted first but it is also a good thing to know that she would have a fall back support system instead of a young woman seking other methods of treatment outside of the mainstream. Wouldn't you agree?

It all comes down to a parent and his/her child's trust and comfort level in being able to discuss these things beforehand and if necessary, afterward to discuss what to do about it in a non-confrontational way.



-Also, let's not pretend that she couldn't obtain the pill from planned parenthood centers either.

[FX4]

Don't want to start a debate, but here's my .02 ---

I don't have a problem whatsoever with the morning after pill, to me it is just another form of contraceptive, no different than birth control or anything of that sort, effectively, it is not eliminating something that has already begun to form, it is keeping the formation from beginning altogether, just like any other contraceptive. I will say that there does need to be some policy regulating distribution, or it will be abused like any other.

Abortion, on the other hand, is complete bullshit. As a father of 2, anyone that says they could perform such an act on something so absolutely precious to this world is a inhuman cold-hearted son of a bitch, IMO. I understand, "they are only teens!!", but you know what, just as I was told by my parents growing up, if you are grown up enough to get pregnant, then you need to step up to the plate and learn responsibility. It may alter lives to a slight extent, but you know what, they can learn to adjust and live with it just like I had to do. I almost tear up thinking how differently my life would be without my 2 kiddos, had I went the "easy way out" :(

[Primal Instinct]

Please don't misconstrue this as any sort of personal attack on you. You have the right to vote for whomever you wish. That is democracy...er well maybe not democracy...but it is the way a republic like the US works. You have equal say with every other voter, although other votes may not be counted legally :(

Your state (Ohio) in particular, has been targeted by the Bush Administration and it is likely that you'll be voting electronically this year on a machine made by the Diebold Corporation. It should also be noted here that these machines give the electorate NO PAPER RECEIPT and the owner of the company that makes these machines, Walden O'Dell, announced in a republican fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." That should raise some red flags, in my mind!


I don't know what city you live in but there was an article about this in the Cleveland Plain Dealer. It is no longer available online from the newspaper but I have found it on another website through a search. If you doubt the veracity of the source, you could always go to your local library and see the actual hardcopy, as they archive them each day for reference material. Here is that article in full:



Headlines

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Published on Thursday, August 28, 2003 by the Cleveland Plain Dealer
Voting Machine Controversy
by Julie Carr Smyth

COLUMBUS - The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O'Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. - who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush - prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O'Dell's company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

O'Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors - known as Rangers and Pioneers - at the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party's federal campaign fund - partially benefiting Bush - at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

The letter went out the day before Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, also a Republican, was set to qualify Diebold as one of three firms eligible to sell upgraded electronic voting machines to Ohio counties in time for the 2004 election.

Blackwell's announcement is still in limbo because of a court challenge over the fairness of the selection process by a disqualified bidder, Sequoia Voting Systems.

In his invitation letter, O'Dell asked guests to consider donating or raising up to $10,000 each for the federal account that the state GOP will use to help Bush and other federal candidates - money that legislative Democratic leaders charged could come back to benefit Blackwell.

They urged Blackwell to remove Diebold from the field of voting-machine companies eligible to sell to Ohio counties.

This is the second such request in as many months. State Sen. Jeff Jacobson, a Dayton-area Republican, asked Blackwell in July to disqualify Diebold after security concerns arose over its equipment.

"Ordinary Ohioans may infer that Blackwell's office is looking past Diebold's security issues because its CEO is seeking $10,000 donations for Blackwell's party - donations that could be made with statewide elected officials right there in the same room," said Senate Democratic Leader Greg DiDonato.

Diebold spokeswoman Michelle Griggy said O'Dell - who was unavailable to comment personally - has held fund-raisers in his home for many causes, including the Columbus Zoo, Op era Columbus, Catholic Social Services and Ohio State University.

Ohio GOP spokesman Jason Mauk said the party approached O'Dell about hosting the event at his home, the historic Cotswold Manor, and not the other way around. Mauk said that under federal campaign finance rules, the party cannot use any money from its federal account for state- level candidates.

"To think that Diebold is somehow tainted because they have a couple folks on their board who support the president is just unfair," Mauk said.

Griggy said in an e-mail statement that Diebold could not comment on the political contributions of individual company employees.

Blackwell said Diebold is not the only company with political connections - noting that lobbyists for voting-machine makers read like a who's who of Columbus' powerful and politically connected.

"Let me put it to you this way: If there was one person uniquely involved in the political process, that might be troubling," he said. "But there's no one that hasn't used every legitimate avenue and bit of leverage that they could legally use to get their product looked at. Believe me, if there is a political lever to be pulled, all of them have pulled it."

Blackwell said he stands by the process used for selecting voting machine vendors as fair, thorough and impartial.

As of yesterday, however, that determination lay with Ohio Court of Claims Judge Fred Shoemaker.

He heard closing arguments yesterday over whether Sequoia was unfairly eliminated by Blackwell midway through the final phase of negotiations.

Shoemaker extended a temporary restraining order in the case for 14 days, but said he hopes to issue his opinion sooner than that.

© 2003 The Plain Dealer

[sana]

Originally posted by dreamgirl
The morning after pill is RU-487, the abortion pill, it's the EXACT same thing. I'm not saying to outlaw this, I don't think it should be handed out in schools, that's all.

NO, you are WRONG.

Plan B - or the morning after pill is an elevated dose of estrogen which will trick the body into not allowing anything to implant in the uterus.

RU-486 is used for aborting a pregnancy that has already occurred. i.e. an egg has fertilized.

please - go do some research before you tell me they are the same.

in addition, you do not actually NEED the morning after pill. doctors have been advising women to take a whole pack of Oral Contraceptives in the 72 hours after unprotected sex (same principle as Plan B) to achieve the same effect.

so please, don't tell me i'm wrong when you REALLY have NO CLUE.

[Cory]

Can anyone sit there and say that this country is in a better position than it was 5 years ago. Hell no. Just look at our financial situation with healthcare premiums being out the roof. Our national debt is at an all time high. This administration has robbed your kids and grandkids social security to fund an unneccessary war. One of the things that pisses me off the most is this fucking republican congress that gets cheaper premiums on healthcare than you and I. They DO NOT care about the american people. I could go on and on, but it pisses me off too much.

[FX4]

Originally posted by Cory
Just look at our financial situation

This is the part that concerns me the most too bro, I don't give two shits about politics, to me they are all just liars that will say/do whatever it takes to win, but I do know that I'm not in near as good of financial shape now as I was back when...I'm kinda like Cuba Gooding Jr. in "Jerry Maguire" --- "Show me the money!!" LOL :) No, there are other things that concern me, but I have come to believe that no matter who is in office there will be problems of some degree, kinda like a give/take relationship

[redsquirrel]

Originally posted by dreamgirl

RS-For you to call me naive is a joke. I read up on everything on both candidates, I listen to the radio for both sides- the either very liberal views or very conservative views, I watch the news. I don't understand why you constantly are trying to attack my opinions.

I am very opinionated, which is no secret to anyone here.

That being said....you say you watch the news and read up on each candidate, you seem to have very little clues as to the true facts of what you are debating. It has absolutely nothing to do with a personal attack. What it DOES have to do with is being an informed voter. All of these things about handing out B/C in schools and what not is total BS because 1) it's not even happening because it never became law and 2) Kerry wasn't the only one to vote for it, either. So, all I am questioning is your contradicting yourself.

Yes, I understand he is the one running, but what I am saying is make sure you know your facts.

[rvgfrth4g]

Originally posted by Cory
Can anyone sit there and say that this country is in a better position than it was 5 years ago. Hell no. Just look at our financial situation with healthcare premiums being out the roof. Our national debt is at an all time high. This administration has robbed your kids and grandkids social security to fund an unneccessary war. One of the things that pisses me off the most is this fucking republican congress that gets cheaper premiums on healthcare than you and I. They DO NOT care about the american people. I could go on and on, but it pisses me off too much.

You know i find it funny that no one takes into considerations that it would take a miracle to turn everything better again after the Clinton Administrations (he had two terms). Even if Kerry was elected president after Clinton not even he could straigthen out all of Clinton's fuck ups. This country was in recetion right before Bush was elected and then 9/11 happened and that just made it worse. Also everyone complains about unemployment being its worst ever. But right now its the same it was when clinton was in office, no different. But i'm sure Kerry will promise some plan of action on unemployment but who knows what it is? lol I'm sure he can tell you he's got a plan though. ;)

[Cory]

Well lets hire him and see what his plan is!! The republicans have never been supporters for strengthening the middle class.

[Primal Instinct]

The way that the Department of Labor and it's unemployment figure calculations work is that if you are not collecting unemployment benefits, you are considered working regardless if you are or not. The only time people who are not collecting unemployment benefits and still aren't working count is when they report in bi-weekly that they're not working but have no open claim to collect. Who does this? When unemployment extension benefits are eliminated from the primary claim as they were last year in many states, those people are considered off of the unemployment books. This means to equate that shorter terms equal less unemployed but it's not true. As a result of reduction of benefit periods, people are forced to take low pay jobs (sometimes several) just to make ends meet. Thus, the standard of living has decreased markedly in the last few years. This has never been as prevalent in the last 20 years as it is now. Add in heavy job outsourcing and the changing dynamics of our economy (as Sana so gently put it) and you have created an ever widening gulf between the investor class and the working class in the US. The Bush administration has even gone so far as attempting to get the DOL to change criteria as to job classifications. One example is fast food employees be moved into the manufacturing sector to prop up the disparaging numbers during this term of government. Sad.

Until G.W. Bush took office, no other administration has eliminated said extensions that I'm aware of or tried to reclassify job sectors. Bush Sr. & Clinton (1st term) both had a slow period near the end of their terms but have never attempted to fudge the numbers or make burger flippers a manufacturing job.