Fuck squats

[Mr I]

Not bad weight....I love box squats...

Thanks bro

[Mr I]

thats the problem. he trains like a power lifter and thats why he has more of a powerlifter look.

not talking shit because he looks big and strong but the shape isnt as good as it could be because of the type of training.

This is true, but you cant do everything at once, gonna keep on a little while longer then once target strength achieved revert back, I was off so long time bro

[Mr I]

Agreed. Mr i i think Phil Heath only squats 3 or 4 plates in his youtube vids and his legs are pretty enormous

As does dennis wolf!

[Mr I]

Got some advice from an olympic weighlifting coach I showed the form vids to, thought I'd share for everyone's benefit, its the olympic straight torso form I want, here's what he said;

Well you're clearly a strong guy. That's some decent weight you're moving in those videos.



I just have a few cursory observations and thoughts which might be of use to you.



Firstly, I really believe that your squat depth is a major issue. You need to start trying to get as far below parallel as possible....ideally full squat. A lot is made of the need for specific drills and stretches to develop full depth. Whilst there are some tricks which can help in when applied acutely, basically you just need to warm up properly and try and squat to full depth week after week until you adapt...and eventually you will.



A big part of this and a number of the other issues you have will almost definitely come down to not being able to leave your masculine ego at the door to the gym and squat light for many weeks and months. It is the curse of being a man ;-) As you said you have developed noteable isolated strength for lots of leg pressing etc and it's understandable that as you have moved to squatting you have wanted to keep pushing yourself. And of course you have the massive engine but your transmission, suspension etc are not to the same level as the engine. If you drop the weight significantly (really significantly) a number of things will happen. Firstly you will be able to squat to whatever full depth is for you right now and over time you'll be able to descend lower and lower until eventually you'll be all the way down. I can't emphasise enough how important full depth squatting is to function and to prevention of the kind of injuries you've suffered. The way I explain it is that when we descend into squat there are a whole range of different involvements of each of the three hamstrings, the four quads, the various aspects of the glutes etc. What is happening when entering and coming out of the true hole is entirely different to what is happening 2inches above that which once again is entirely different to what will happen 2inches above that and so on. If we continually only experience or preferentially overload only certain elements of that process it is inevitable that an imbalanced adaptation will take place.



The other aspect of squatting with lighter weights is that it will allow you move away from the more powerlifting orientated squat which you use you to something in which the torso is far more upright...i.e. something approaching an Olympic squat. I shall try and explain the importance of this in regard to muscle mechanics. A good example of this issue is something very commonly seen in sprinters. For whatever reason (it's a different debate) they generally only 1/2 squat. Moreover they tend to only back squat and a lot of them use the deadlift. When they deadlift they inevitably spend too much time lifting near limit and what generally happens is that what evolves is a deadlift where when they start to pull, the arse lifts, the legs shoot up straight and they throw the whole thing onto the hamstrings. Now of course once you do this for a short while you train the hamstrings to get stronger and stronger and quad involvement gets less and less and thus the whole deadlift exercise becomes a very hamstring dominant movement. They compound this by back squatting (and this obviously applies to you) and as is the nature of the back squat most people perform it in somewhat of a sitting back style....once again placing the bulk of the focus upon the posterior chain which is compounded by only half squatting. The is made even worse if they spend too much time near limit and start doing the inevitable near Good Morning out of a heavy back squat. So over time they become increasing hamstring dominant...both physiologically but perhaps more importantly neurologically. I would argue that this is the #1 reason why the most common in competition injury for sprinters is a hamstring tear.



The solution for these guys is to drop the load...move more to a front squat for a long period and either deadlift light and with much better form or perhaps move to a trap bar deadlift for a while....and of course squat deep. Eventually it will re-educate the balance and develop a far more healthy hamstring/quad balance. Often this balance is misunderstood because textbooks talk about how the ratio of quad to hamstring strength is notably in favour of the quads. But in reality this is totally meaningless because the way they act in reality is totally different to the isolated leg curl/leg extension method used in testing on an isokinetic dynamometer. On top of this a 'weaker' muscle can still dominate 'stronger' muscles if it is neurologically innovated earlier and more efficiently. So imagine a sprinter innovates their hamstrings far earlier and more vigorously than their quads (which are their natural brake) is it any surprise the hamstring tears?



I think all of this relates to your issue. The sore back is a symptom of all of this I believe. If you go right back to basics in the way I've previously outlined and make a long, concerted effort to re-educate the way your body is working then I think you'll be able to work back up to heavier weights in the back squat. Even then though I would limit how often you go anywhere near full out effort. Stop the set the second you see any deviation from the perfect Olympic style back squat unless it's one of the rare sessions you're testing what you can do either for a single or a rep range in an almost Powerlifting comp style fashion. There's a great quote which states 'there's a difference between lifting heavy things and actually getting stronger' and I believe it's the most pivotal and most overlooked concept in strength training.

[Bouncer]

good post, basically you need to drop the weight and go deeper.

pretty much what i been telling you! :D

[Mr I]

yeah but he says much more than that, very intelligent guy and responsible for two world champs

[Bouncer]

yeah but he says much more than that, very intelligent guy and responsible for two world champs

does he? looks to me like he is saying by making the weight lighter and going a little deeper the muscle imbalacnces will correct themselves.

[Mr I]

I know you could care less of what I have to say but I will say it anyways...Have you tried box squats? If so, get back to them...You don't go low enough...I need to get a video posted of me box squatting and regular squats...You need to go lower or lower the weight.

Spread your toes out and push with your hips all the way through and lock the hips as you fully extend...Pause for a second or two then repeat again...I could never wear a belt, actually never do. It restricts really bad my breathing.

The weight isn't bad, I've done it myself and deeper of a squat...But your hips are all over the place, they don't look stable and box squats will help that; try it.

Thanks Rado, I didn't post the vids to show off, honestly. I can squat a fair bit more (have done previously).

This is only the second time I've squatted free weight in a long, long time and I've started it because I think its a more rounded exercise for rehab following a hamstring injury.

What I would like to do is spend some time learning to do it properly and get better at it, nott bothered about getting stronger for now.

I would like to squat deeper so I will be dropping the weight as you say and getting down as far as I reasonably can while maintaining posture.

The brutal fact is that my form is bad and i don't have the flexibility, part of the reason is that I just plain don't need this excercise to build legs.

Now I would like to learn to to it to redress some physiological imbalances in my body so long as it doesn't hurt me.

[Mr I]

I hear ya...I guess my power lifting is pretty darn good I'd say....not trying to put myself on a high horse either...but when I see others lift heavy or see videos, then I see what I do with similar if not heavier weight with good strict form, I guess I've just got accustom to the fact of only doing it one way; properly....If we develop a habit or a technique regardless of what it is and we think this is right and we continue on.....to be able to change your entire set up is a mind fuck...For examples...my deads...I can not nor will I try sumo lifts...I do one hand in and one out...legs shoulder apart etc...when I've been told I could lift even more if I had a wider stance, sumo lift etc...but having a wider stance also is less travel of the bar, so fuck that lol.

Thanks bro
So your squat is not what I'd call a typical powerlifting squat; wide stance, ass out, lean forward then? you see I'm trying to go more olympic which is a straight up torso, sit right down into your feet kinda form. If I want to simply lift as much as possible to say I've done it I could but I'm not about that.

I'm doing high rep rotation leg workout tonight then I'll start with higher rep low weight squats next week.

Did you know; Tom Platz used to squat 225lb, FOR TEN MINUTES! lol, just that, 225lb for ten minutes squatting none stop LOLZ! the 530lb or so (which was the actual weight) he did in the squat off against Dr squat fred hatfield where he got 23 reps was years after he'd retired from bodybuilding.

Post some vids Rado, I'd genuinely be interested

[Mr I]

Couldn't get to the gym tonight so did some deep back yard squats just technique based with 135lb, very deep, holding posture, fucken tear drop is full blown and 3 sets of ten or so has done something to stretch the fascia I tell ya, just working the felxibility though like I said

I just read a post on another board that I found very informative about deep squats, as well as hope-instilling for myself (I've screwed up my knees squatting incorrectly and otherwise, which ultimately lead to me taking it easy on my legs for months!). It's a good read.

2 Ariel, B.G., 1974. Biomechanical analysis of the knee joint during deep knee bends with a heavy load. Biomechanics. IV(1):44-52.

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

Knee injuries are one of the most commonly stated problems that come from squatting, however, this is usually stated by those who do not know how to squat. A properly performed squat will appropriately load the knee joint, which improves congruity by increasing the compressive forces at the knee joint. (8,(9) which improves stability, protecting the knee against shear forces. As part of a long-term exercise program, the squat, like other exercises, will lead to increased collagen turnover and hypertrophy of ligaments. (10,11) At least one study has shown that international caliber weightlifters and powerlifters experience less clinical or symptomatic arthritis. (12) Other critics of the squat have stated that it decreases the stability of the knees, yet nothing could be further from the truth. Studies have shown that the squat will increase knee stability by reducing joint laxity, as well as decrease anterior-posterior laxity and translation. (13,14) The squat is, in fact, being used as a rehabilitation exercise for many types of knee injuries, including ACL repair. (15)

EDIT: BTW, I'm sure most of you already knew this. But, for the newbies like myself, this could be eye-opening.

[ROCKETW19]

does he? looks to me like he is saying by making the weight lighter and going a little deeper the muscle imbalacnces will correct themselves.

I pretty much got the same thing outta it.
regaurdless of what anyone says that is a shit load of weight and you can do it so just drop the weight down get fourm correct and I bet you live a happier life injury free.

[Mr I]

I pretty much got the same thing outta it.
regaurdless of what anyone says that is a shit load of weight and you can do it so just drop the weight down get fourm correct and I bet you live a happier life injury free.

After going that bit further down, well rock bottom with only 135lb, the reaction in my thigh muscles was violent bro. I totally makes up for the boredom of going light, I'll continue with this without complaint while my body is reacting this way, I've a feeling that with the stability improved eventually, and with full range of motion, its gonna enable me to properly engage my legs and ass, probably leading to a strength increase also

[Mr I]

like the coach said "'there's a difference between lifting heavy things and actually getting stronger"

[Bouncer]

like the coach said "'there's a difference between lifting heavy things and actually getting stronger"

Good shit!

[Mr I]

Ok so I just did four sets twenty reps deep with only 135, all strict form but explosive then finish. I'm ashley feeling other muscles engaging that I'm not used to feeling like upper hamstring inner thigh tie in areas. Gonna do this twice a week where possible now for a couple months.