Im comming clean.

[bad14u]

Originally posted by THE BOUNCER
My last shot was 21 days ago. I start PCT tommorow. Oh boy.. lol

Proud of ya Big Bro! Keep up the good work! :agree:

[Akamai]

Bounce, since youve already stopped, I wouldnt use the Hcg, it will raise estrogen levels which will further complicate or stall your recovery, it could of been used in the last weeks of cycle to kick start the nads.

In you situation clomid will probably cause depression, so i would use 40 mgs nolvadex and a good anti e preferably femara or better.

Your main mental issue will be poundage in the gym. Try to stay simmilar weight with fewer reps.

Also dont use the proviron as it is also suppressive.

[AlmostThere]

Originally posted by Akamai
[
Also dont use the proviron as it is also suppressive. [/B]

Many would debate that. Ive talked to more then one person who says it brings back the feelings of well being and sex drive i am sure he is lacking right now. Its no more suppressive then the hcg he is running . If his sex drive is in the shitter and he,s depressed id do some more research on it if i was him.

[spidey]

Originally posted by Akamai
Bounce, since youve already stopped, I wouldnt use the Hcg, it will raise estrogen levels which will further complicate or stall your recovery, it could of been used in the last weeks of cycle to kick start the nads.

In you situation clomid will probably cause depression, so i would use 40 mgs nolvadex and a good anti e preferably femara or better.

Your main mental issue will be poundage in the gym. Try to stay simmilar weight with fewer reps.

Also dont use the proviron as it is also suppressive.

Proviron is NOT suppressive at the normal dosages of 50 to 100 mg ed. Studies have shown no effect on testosterone, FSH, or LH levels at dosages of 150 mg ed for 6 months to a year. The only study I have seen that found some suppression was one where the dosage was 350 mg to 400 mg ed for several months.

[Akamai]

I know what the studies say but IMO if its suppressive at any dose a lesser dose is going to be suppressive to some extent .Again its a sorta of bridge.

Any way, Bouncer you could also run IGF OR GFL seems to work wonders durung pct.

[Bouncer]

Right now im running:

50mg clomid
50mg proviron for the first week and then 25mg there after
20mg Nolvadex

Im running this for 5 weeks.

[Cmsmallzz]

Originally posted by Akamai
I know what the studies say but IMO if its suppressive at any dose a lesser dose is going to be suppressive to some extent .Again its a sorta of bridge.

Any way, Bouncer you could also run IGF OR GFL seems to work wonders durung pct.

LOL...Bro not looking to start an argument but what information are you basing you opinion on? If something is supressive at a higher dose that does not mean it is necessarily supressive at any dose.

[Cmsmallzz]

Originally posted by THE BOUNCER
Right now im running:

50mg clomid
50mg proviron for the first week and then 25mg there after
20mg Nolvadex

Im running this for 5 weeks.

I like the looks of that Bro....Good Luck.

[Akamai]

No i understand, Just in a sense reverse engineering. it may infact take that high a dose to show a conseqence on a blood panel, to start signs of suppression but we are not talking about suppresion or shut down. Im speaking specifically about hindering ones recouperation. I feel that in fact it may not cause further problem but it is highly likely to kkep one from optimal recovery. The bodies negative feedback loop starts immediatly.
Even the smallest amounts of hormones effects it.

Also when dealing with upper level competitors there isnt much concern with comming off as most dont for more then a couple of weeks a year. I know its crazy but its a fact. So standard PCT for some one doing 10-12 weeks cycle doesnt always fit here.

My reccomendation would have been to switch to short esters for six weeks with declining dosages while doing hcg 3 times a week at 300 -500. nolvadex and letrozole for 4 weeks. And that may infact not be enough . Add in IGF1 -r3 to off set muscle loss, helping ones mental state and hope for the best.

[spidey]

What are you basing your opinion that it will hinder recovery on? How do you know that "The bodies negative feedback loop starts immediatly. Even the smallest amounts of hormones effects it." What is your training in this area? I am guessing this is just your opinion.

Again, the study (a clinical study) showed NO EFFECT on FSH, LH or testosterone levels at doses of 150 mg (higher than BB would typically use) for 12 months (MUCH longer than BB would use). That would indicate no hindrence of recovery. I would advise everyone to use proviron during PCT to counteract some of the more disagreeable sides like depression, sexual disfunction, and catabolism.

[Akamai]

Just 18 years of experience in the field having learned from and working with two of the best.

As far as studies, I take them with a grain of salt, back in the 80s there were numerous stateing that anabolics did nothing at all but we knew better.

And yes I believe the negative feedback loop starts immediatly, I have to ask you why you think it doesnt? I would like to read this specific study if you can provide reference for me Spidy. Thanks bro.

[AlmostThere]

I was hoping i wasnt gonna start an argument like this again.

I think this is the study spidey was referring to.

The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

And heres the only study i have found that proves suppression.Notice the doses.

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links

The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.

[AlmostThere]

Originally posted by THE BOUNCER
Right now im running:

50mg clomid
50mg proviron for the first week and then 25mg there after
20mg Nolvadex

Im running this for 5 weeks.

Looks good bro. Are you splitting the proviron one tab in the am and one in the pm? It might be worth having some extra supplies handy incase you end up needing to stretch the PCT out to 6 or 7 weeks.

Some say its no harder to restart after a long cycle (year or more) then a 8 week cycle. And others say its murder getting restarted if you are able to at all. Keep us posted on how it goes for you.

[spidey]

Thanks Almostthere. Yes, those are the studies I was referring to.

[Akamai]

Thanks bro it does look promising for the groups looked at and there sperm count as well free and bound test. which is why we use proviron for SBGH. But doesnt have much correlattion to the supraphsiological dose of exogenous androgens we are looking at . IT shows that it those with elevated FSH and LH were supressed. That is in fact suppresion at that dose.

My question is here is did it infact not hinder the return to normal tesosterone production in a male using large amount of androgens for an extended period of time. Although this study doesnt address this.

I do think other inferences are very useful. .

Thanks brother good read.